Nechumi Yaffe: ‘I hate the idea that we are being killed and need to kill’

Transcripts are lightly edited—please excuse any imperfections.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think peace between Israelis and Palestinians will happen within your lifetime?

Nechumi Yaffe: I don’t know. It’s a question that I’ve asked myself this year a lot. I don’t know.

Sruli Fruchter: I see as we’re talking you’re getting very emotional.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes, because this year made me realize that maybe we’re very much farther than I thought we were. I thought like, you know, it’s just gonna happen. But now I’m thinking maybe, maybe we need more time. Maybe there’s no redness.

Hi, I’m Dr. Nechumi Yaffe. I’m a professor at Tel Aviv University and a political psychologist. And this is 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers by 18Forty.

Sruli Fruchter: From 18Forty, this is 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers, and I’m your host, Sruli Fruchter.

18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers is a podcast that interviews Israel’s leading voices to explore those critical questions people are having today on Zionism, the Israel-Hamas war, democracy, morality, Judaism, peace, Israel’s future, and so much more. Every week, we introduce you to fresh perspectives and challenging ideas about Israel from across the political spectrum that you won’t find anywhere else. So if you’re the kind of person who wants to learn, understand, and dive deeper into Israel, then join us on our journey as we pose 18 pressing questions to the 40 Israeli journalists, scholars, and religious thinkers you need to hear from today. 

The different sectors of Israel’s religious society, I’m thinking specifically of Religious Zionism, Haremim, Hardalim, which is that blend between Haredi and the Religious Zionist community.

It almost always falls upon the right side of the political spectrum. And I’ve spoken about that before, about how the line sometimes cuts in interesting ways with judicial reform versus the Haredi army draft, religious pluralism in Israel, and so much more. And in general, the right in Israel, which again is very diverse, broad, nuanced, and not defined by one or two parties, has been more popular in Israel for years. And I don’t think it’s an overstatement or inaccurate at all to say that Israeli society, at least now, leans much more right.

That’s why I was fascinated to learn about the rise of a new movement in Israel known as Smol Ha’emuni, the religious left or the faithful left, which is a movement of religious Israelis of a wide spectrum from Masorti, which is more cultural or traditional Judaism, all the way to Haredi, whose politics align with more left of center, liberal left wing, however you want to formulate it, specifically as it relates to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the war in Gaza, and social politics in Israel. One caveat, and again, the same way there is nuance and diversity on the Israeli right, there is the same on the Israeli left. Left wing in Israel is very different from left wing in America or in the West, as people may be more familiar. Things are definitely different now over a year since October 7th and a year after since the war first began against Hamas, but the left wing in Israel was overall very supportive of at least some form of a war or a military campaign against Hamas, fervently believe in Israel as a Jewish state, and do not think that Israel is committing genocide, as many on the left in America are apt to do.

So that caveat is important, and there’s a lot more nuance to go along with it, but I do think it’s important to keep in mind that the political labels used have different meanings depending on the context. But today’s guest is a social leader in Smol Ha’emuni, and a Haredi woman and an academic. Her name is Dr. Nechumi Yaffe, and I first heard her on Jewish Currents’ podcast, which was profiling the religious left, which is when I first had a deeper introduction into the movement. Nechumi is a faculty member in the public policy department at Tel Aviv University, and completed her postdoctoral research at Princeton University.

Her research examines and her expertise is examining how identity and social norms and authority influence poverty and form a social psychological lens for a given community. And the community that she lives in, identifies with, and is most involved in learning about is the Haredi communities in Israel and the U.S. And for her it’s not just an abstract discussion or model of learning, but she is very deeply involved in the advocacy and in the workings of Haredi social life. She advised the Haredi education system and authored the new history curriculum and textbook that is now used across all Haredi high schools in Israel. During COVID-19, she advised the Israeli government on the Haredi community.

And after October 7th, Nechumi established the Unity Command Center, the largest Haredi emergency response center, which coordinated over 100,000 Haredi volunteers supporting the war effort. Her vision integrates research and practice driven by a desire to improve integration and community outreach in the Haredi community. A lot of our discussion is talking about Haredim in Israel, but there is also a significant discussion, a very important discussion I think, of Nechumi’s own religious and personal development and response since October 7th. What I found interesting during our interview is that at least from my assessment, there weren’t really that many things that we had spoken about that seems to be distinctly liberal or left-wing in identification of her political views.

But we also spoke a lot about Smol Ha’emuni and how that does tie up and bind, as she said, many of the disparate parts of her identity that she often feels is in conflict as a Haredi woman, as an academic, as someone who identifies on the Israeli left. And it made for a very unique and interesting conversation. It was a fascinating discussion and I’m very excited for you to hear it. But before we jump into it, as expected, if you have questions that you want us to ask or guests that you want us to feature, shoot us an email at info@1840.org and be sure to subscribe and rate the podcast so that we can reach new listeners.

And without further ado, here is 18 Questions with Nechumi Yaffe. 

So we’ll begin where we always do. As an Israeli and as a Jew, how are you feeling at this moment in Israeli history? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I think we are at a very rough m oment. I think especially today, as the news come up and there are so many people that are dying and you see all those orphans and the numbers are accumulating and you feel there’s a little bit of despair and a question, how will the solution look like? It seems so hopeless in a way.

So I think it’s a very tough day today. And I think we are at a rough moment historically. I think there is a lot of many angles that are coming together. We established the state, we managed to come and dry the sand and build a beautiful first-world technology world.

But it seems that some of the inner frictions and the inner conflict that we are historically carrying, we are just trying to unpack it for the first time and we just can’t do it. We can’t yet do it. Especially I feel like as a Haredi person, hearing all the sides and feeling misunderstood and also in so many ways being unable to broadcast to the outer world how my community thinks and is it okay. And also I feel like it’s very hard looking back into my community and realizing they don’t understand the world that they are in.

And actually how do we broadcast back to my own community what’s going on there in the world. So I just think it’s a very tough moment of a lot of friction and misunderstanding.

Sruli Fruchter: Can you talk a little bit more specifically about what things you’re thinking of that are making this moment so difficult for you? 

Nechumi Yaffe: So I think there is very harsh, you know, high yielding demand from the Israeli society for ultra-Orthodox to be part of the army and be part of those people who are protecting the land. And on the other hand, it seems that the Haredi community is kind of saying, we don’t want to hear about any solutions.

In a way, two years ago, there were more room for all kinds of solutions and all kinds of, you know, caving in in some ways to find a bridging point. And it comes to this conflictual, you know, tenuous moment that there’s just, no one is considering any solutions. It’s almost like a zero-sum game this moment. And I feel like today, the whole day I was busy talking to all kinds of, you know, decision-makers in the Haredi world, in politics, in the rabbinical kind of circles, to just let back the community, understand why people are so, so like, so rageous about the community.

And it seems like no one is getting it. The outside world is not getting it. The community is not getting it. So I feel like today- 

Sruli Fruchter: Like a mutual misunderstanding.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes. And I think it definitely has to do with the, you know, the toil of that. You know, it’s just very tough. So today is a hard day.

I’m sorry.

Sruli Fruchter: No, no. What is been Israel’s greatest success and greatest mistake in the current war against Hamas? 

Nechumi Yaffe: Well, that’s a very big question. I think the mistake is definitely we were not ready.

We were arrogant in a way. We thought like, we looked down on them. We thought they cannot come up with such a plan, such a magnitude. We didn’t think they are up to it.

And I think it has to do with a general despise and arrogance we have towards them. Towards Palestinians and, you know, and towards their challenges. And we just think like they’re not as smart and sophisticated as us. And I don’t think we, some of us, realize they really mean it.

They really mean it. They really want a sovereignty. They really want independence. And there’s some intensity to it that I think some people just don’t understand.

They would understand it and respect it, maybe, that would be more willing to consider some peaceful and some negotiable solutions. So I think there is arrogance. 

Sruli Fruchter: That’s something that you see as from before the war, but also since the war began.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes.

I think since the war began. So I think this is the biggest mistake. It led us to this moment. There was a shifting point that Israel managed to release those four soldiers, with Noa Argamani, this Shabbos.

I think there was like a moral shift there that was really needed it because there was a lot of humiliation in October 7th. It wasn’t just the death. It was just our vulnerability was so exposed. And, you know, in a way, Zionism was this endeavor to say never again.

And it kind of, for a day, it failed. We have to remember it was for a day, but people just are sore from it still. So I think there was something about, you know, kind of like releasing those four hostages that changed people’s morals. 

Sruli Fruchter: As the greatest success, you think?

Nechumi Yaffe: No, I think it was like a shift.

I think at the end of the day, our ability to kill Nasrallah, who was a bad man, and Sinwar that are bad men that are taking their own people into death and are stubborn and unnegotiable. You know, just taking them out of the equation is a success because now maybe their followers would be more negotiable. So I think it’s the biggest success. Also, I think Israel technologies, you know, an ability to defend itself with Iran’s missiles.

All those things are kind of zokefet kumatenu. I don’t know what the English version would be. Just to give people their dignities that they were so hurt, so deeply hurt on October 7th. I don’t know if there’s just one, you know, all of it accumulates.

Sruli Fruchter: How have your religious views changed since October 7th? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I think it’s fluctuate, to be honest. I was very, very angry on Hashem. I was like, why? Why do we deserve it? We try to be good. We are trying to do good in the world.

I think there are so many people who are invested in doing good. So many people are invested in peace endeavors. And they were the first to die, you know. So many of the victims of October 7th are people that were very invested in the peace process.

And I felt like we don’t deserve it. We don’t deserve it as Jews. Like, why can’t we just come to our land and live peacefully? Why do we have to have this massacre? I was really angry, so angry.

Sruli Fruchter: Have you found resolution to that answer?

Nechumi Yaffe: I feel like maybe just the reason that we are just not left to live like a normal, boring life is weird providence, but it’s like we matter.

I don’t know. We are being called for something. I don’t know what it is, but it feels like the normal thing would be we should just have peace. We should come to an agreement and live our life like, you know, so many nations around the world are just living their life.

But we don’t get to do it. We don’t get to do it. And we again and again in the center of the world news, always making it into the headlines. It’s like we have historical missions that we have to figure out through this war, through this conflict.

So I feel like this, I feel like some of the prayers became more meaningful. 

Sruli Fruchter: Any in particular that you’re thinking of? 

Nechumi Yaffe: Shemoneh Esrei. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just a ritual. Maybe it’s just, you know, it’s just like, you know, you can give meaning to all of the brachot, but just, you know, has all of it have just more meaning? And there’s something about the ritual practice that kind of holds the reality in moments that it’s so fragile.

Sruli Fruchter: What do you mean by that?

Nechumi Yaffe: I feel like in the first few weeks, just a daring to prayer, a daring to religious lifestyle really helps you kind of like hold your well together. You don’t feel it’s like all shattered.

Sruli Fruchter: It grounds you.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yeah, it grounds you.

And it’s like kind of holds the world for you. And I think there is something every Chag since has a much deeper meaning. And understanding we are in a journey in history. And there’s something about the Chagim that actually it’s like, you know, it’s a spiral in time that we go back to some moment and the history accumulates on the Chagim and there is just deeper meaning.

And every Chag, you know, the Sukkot, we had like a picture of the Hatufim in the Sukkah. And I felt like we want to bring it under the Sukkah to give them the protection, to give them the, you know, so just every Chag has a more deep meaning. So in a way there is the anger, but there is the depth of the religion. 

Sruli Fruchter: It’s very interesting, I think, also to ask you specifically this question because kind of, as we spoke about before this interview and a lot of your work, you find yourself in a lot of different camps, religiously and politically as well, that often don’t align.

As a Haredi woman, as someone who’s part of Smol Ha’emuni, the religious left, which, you know, our viewers probably will hear about in my introduction. So I don’t think we’ll need a little synopsis here. And then also someone who’s in the world of academia and in broader Israeli society. I’m curious how those different parts of your identity have been shaping your experience with this as someone, I guess, specifically part of Smol Ha’emuni, which is a newer movement that’s fomenting in Israel.

Nechumi Yaffe: Actually the Smol Ha’emuni is tidying up some of my world. So it’s finding a way where I can talk about me being religious, me being spiritual in a political world and bringing some of the ideas that are more in the academic sphere or more in the broader secular world, finding some language that can deal with it. Because I think there is something very interesting with the Smol Ha’emuni that is kind of attending to some ideas that are not naturally rooted in what we do call religious life, because I feel like—

You know, for so many generations, Jews were prosecuted and they couldn’t think about the greater good outside of survival. So they couldn’t think about humanity, about seeing human being for what they are because they had to survive as opposed to their neighbors who kind of wanted them to die.

So they couldn’t dwell on humanistic values because they had to kind of be focused on their own identity and their own group. There’s something about the Smol Ha’emuni that is tying up and finding a religious language to talk about some of the universal values, some of the social justice, things that are usually a little bit outside of what was for 2,000 years a survival mechanism for Jewish life. So you have here and there. So they’re kind of like tying it up to like a more closed tight story, but Jews had to just deal with other things.

So there’s something about Smol Ha’emuni that helps me tie my spiritual world, the world that wants things to be just right and moral and straight and values that are not just religious values like, you know, being, you know, Torah mitzvot and being loyal to your own people. So it’s being loyal to your own people, but just seeing the other people as well.

Sruli Fruchter: What does that look like for you since October 7th? 

Nechumi Yaffe: Hard. 

Sruli Fruchter: What’s been hard about it? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I think the first few weeks, no one could see anyone but the Israeli society.

I remember like in the first week saying, what’s going to be coming now for Gaza? You know, wearing, wearing by the children, understanding, you know, understanding the state, you know, what’s, what has been done and understanding that needs to be a reaction because we need to survive. We can’t die, but understanding the ramification and only my friends from Smol Ha’emuni could, you know, understand it, said it’s actually going to be very complicated. I remember even like we were like thinking of writing something about like not stopping humanitarian aid, you know. It says that when you are sieging a city, you are bringing in bread and water.

And speaking to some of my friends, like, you know, there are children there and we have to make sure we still keeping Jewish law, which is like you do give food and water. And so this was the only circles that I could talk about it and still, still care more about my family as Israelis and as Jews, but also acknowledging there’s other people out there. Also, we had some, you know, getting together like, you know, groups and praying together and learning and having, we had a class, every week just to, you know, to learn and just to come together around Jewish texts, around Jewish tradition, around things that are makes up what we are, our identity, because I think it’s, it’s, it’s woven. And I think being Haredi is for many years, at least in the Israeli community, being Haredi was not automatically assumed to be on the right wing because through the years, the ultra-Orthodox community was more left than right.

Sruli Fruchter: Oh, really? 

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes.

Sruli Fruchter: Left in what sense?

Nechumi Yaffe: Peace, peace-oriented, you know. 

Sruli Fruchter: The Haredi community.

Nechumi Yaffe: We don’t know about the community because … That’s very interesting. I just did, I just wrote a paper. We never collected data. So we don’t know what people thought. 

Haredi leaders were always dovish, you know, always going with the left parties, but we have to acknowledge that the left were in the power. So were they going with the power or were they going with being dovish? We do know that some of their rabbanim were very dovish, you know. Rav Shach, he came out with claims that are, you know, we have to be very careful. We have to, you know, we can’t dwell.

He was against, you know, Modi’in Illit, because it was like on, you know, on land it was mitnachalim actually, and he was against it. And he was like pro peace and he was pro, you know, pro negotiation. And Rav Ovadia Yosef is the one who’s backed Oslo, you know.

Sruli Fruchter: Did you feel like that was getting, or that’s gotten the type of coverage that reflects that? Because I’ve never heard that.

Like, I mean, I’m not doubting it. I’m almost surprised that that hasn’t been something that’s been part of, I think, conversations or part of general history.

Nechumi Yaffe: It’s interesting. I mean, I grew up- 

Sruli Fruchter: Have you found that to be the case? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I grew up knowing it.

And I wrote the textbook for 11th and 12th grades, all Haredi high school. So it’s in my textbook. I made sure it’s in my textbook. Ovadia Yosef, Rav Shach, just saying that, you know, so students in the Haredi community learn it.

So, but I do not know what people thought. I know what the leaders were thinking and how they were voting. Now we have data. And in our data, we do see people that are really very much on the right, right.

You know, the hawkish kind of, but also the leaders are more hawkish. So you don’t know what was before. The leaders were definitely more dovish.

Sruli Fruchter: What do you look for in deciding which Knesset party to vote for?

Nechumi Yaffe: Integrity, someone honest, that I can rely on his word.

Someone that has a vision, someone that just want something, has a direction. Where is this country going for and want to get us? I feel like it’s, you know, it’s part of leader’s job to get us from point A to point B. So they should have a plan. It’s hard to get.

Sruli Fruchter: I’ve heard.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yeah. 

Sruli Fruchter: Which is more important for Israel: Judaism or democracy?

Nechumi Yaffe: Well, it’s a very good question.

I don’t know how to answer it. I think-

Sruli Fruchter: Walk us through your thought process.

Nechumi Yaffe: Okay. So I think this hybrid is very special.

And I want to say something. As a Haredi person, actually being realistic, there is no Haredi community, which is not in a very democratic kind of city. Most Haredi communities are urban and are located in the most democratic areas in the world. We have no Haredi community in, you know, Arizona or Utah.

And we have it in New York. 

Sruli Fruchter: It depends on the country being democratic.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yeah. So there’s something about the Haredi community, which is tied to being urban and democratic.

Okay. I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I think it has to do with the ideology in a way, you know, they can oppose to some of democratic values, but they want really, it’s kind of like a little bit of opposing kind of ideology. So it’s very hard to oppose to something that is very too much in line with your own.

So the Haredi community was established as a movement against, you know, and it still keeps their, you know, against kind of ideology. And in a way it needs the other in order to flourish and to keep its own ideology. So I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they are living in the most liberal democratic cities. So as a Haredi person, I don’t think we’re going to end up living if it wouldn’t be a democracy.

I think if this would be just a democracy, so it would be just like any other country in the world. And in a way we can’t live in Israel without having a Jewish flavor and Jewish weight to it. I do think for many, many years due to exile, Jewish thought and philosophy did not develop well enough and fast enough to accurately encounter questions that has to do with modern world. You know, economy, policy, that has to do with like country, how do you establish roads? So in a way I feel like Jewish thought and practice is not right to be by its own without democracy.

So I wouldn’t want to be like, you know, I don’t, so what it look like? Because most of like the majority of Jewish writing does not relate to a modern world. So how could it be a Jewish state without democracy? In a way it’s just, it’s not right. So I want it to be a Jewish democracy.

Sruli Fruchter: Many liberals and secular Israelis have written a lot about the Haredi birth rate and Haredim are going to, they have like, it’s ironically like some sort of fear, Haredim are going to take over the country.

But from what you’re saying, it doesn’t seem like, let’s entertain that understanding of Haredi birth rate and what the potential is. Haredim are looking to quote unquote, make a Haredi Israel. Do you feel like that is what the political leaders in the Haredi world are trying  to reflect or trying to cultivate? 

Nechumi Yaffe:I think that none of the Haredi politicians are ready to be, not even a majority, to be even like, they’re not ready for the powers that they own. They’re not ready for the weight that they found themselves in.

And I think they are very perplexed by it because they understand for the first time, some of them, some of the time understand that their decision, they were so focused and getting scores and points for their own community and never took it in account. Like actually when we pass a law, it has to relate to the entire country. And they were not ready for it because they were raised and their whole thing was like as a minority to get points for their community, to play this kind of game. And now they accidentally found themselves in a position that they actually have to take in account the entire country.

Sruli Fruchter: Isn’t that a bit what the Knesset model of coalitions requires that each party has its own specific interests? 

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes. But once you, they’re 30% of the government, which means their weight is way more than their actual percentile in the population because their percentile is only 13% and their weight is 30%, 31 actually. So they’re not ready for this position of power and they are perplexed by it because when they do decisions, they have to make decisions for the entire country, not their own community. They can only think about their own community and it gives them very hard, a big headache.

It’s a game they’re not prepared for. So this is like challenging. I don’t think the Haredi community was ever designed in the way it is now to be, to have such an influence. And I don’t think they want this influence.

They want to kind of take care of their own community, but now they kind of like faced with a different reality.

Sruli Fruchter: Should Israel treat its Jewish and non-Jewish citizens the same?

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes.

Sruli Fruchter: Can you say more about that? 

Nechumi Yaffe: What’s there to say? Don’t we want to be treated the same way as other citizens all over the world? Why don’t we walk the talk? For so many generations, we were claiming against everyone else, why don’t you see us as citizens? And now with the new power, we want to see the others as citizens? End of story. 

Sruli Fruchter: Now that Israel already exists, what’s the purpose of Zionism? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I think Zionism is not concrete, like building a building and once the building is done, we’re done.

No, I think it’s a mission. I think it’s a vision of a world of justice, of a world of advancement for the Jewish people and for the world. So I think part of Zionism was bringing Jews together to live together and we can do it. So we are very far from actualizing what Zionism is.

So I think Zionism is like an idea and we haven’t achieved it yet. We’re just under process. We managed to do maybe the easiest part, which is the physical part. Now we have the social part and the spiritual part of finding what our mission as Jews in a modern world and what our contribution in the modern world.

We don’t have words to talk about it. We don’t know what it looks like. So no, we haven’t achieved Zionism yet.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you see Smol Ha’emuni as working towards actualizing that or you see it as serving a different purpose?

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes.

I think this is part of it. Maybe I would want to add that I think is not the only solution, but I think it’s part of the solution. I don’t think I want to be in a world that everyone is just one, you know, one way. So if there is a Smol Ha’emuni, there should be a Yamin Ha’emuni, but should be a little different than what there is today.

And I think more humanistic, more merciful.

Sruli Fruchter: What would make it different than Smol Ha’emuni? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I think the difference between left and right boils down to what do you prioritize? I think everything is very important for everyone and we want to get it all. But some things are more important to different people and different intensity. So, you know, you can talk about how Jonathan Haidt’s moral foundation theory and his, you know, the way you prioritize different morals.

This is a very simple way of talking. So I think like for people in the left side, morals like care and, you know, avoiding harm are very important. And people in the right side, morals like purity are very important. So I think each one brings to the table different values and different, you know, weights to them.

And there is a different, you know, there’s different colors to this pie. 

Sruli Fruchter: Is opposing Zionism inherently antisemitic? 

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes. I mean, whatever. The question is about Zionism.

If Zionism is just the establishing of a Jewish country, who cares about who is affected by it, so maybe it’s not Zionism. But if Zionism is actualizing not a colonialistic idea of the 19th century. Yeah. So if Zionism is, you know, a 19th century colonialistic project, opposing it is just, you know, opposing colonialism.

But if Zionism is actualizing a Jewish few thousand yearning to sovereignty, to, you know, being on your own place, having a home and having a place where you can flourish as people. So opposing to this is just hating Jews. So it depends how you define Zionism.

Sruli Fruchter: How would you say the opposition towards Zionism has evolved in the Haredi community today? Because I feel like one of the interesting things that people always bring up with the question of Zionism is the different relationships that internal.

I think there’s like Jewish communities, so to speak, of like Jewish voice for peace. And then there’s Jewish communities of especially I think most come to mind are like the more right wing yeshivish or Haredi communities in America. And then even in Israel as well. Like there was just recently a video that was going viral on Twitter.

I don’t know if you’re on Twitter of someone in Mea Shearim. And he was pulling down a Palestinian flag that was hung up there. I think that a Neturei Karta put up. So I’m curious like how you’ve seen that develop and how you think of that.

Because then obviously like studying the Haredi community, living there and being in that world is very much.

Nechumi Yaffe: I think like most people like those people are just, you know, they don’t understand the context. Some of them, most of them.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think it’s as widespread as people think? 

Nechumi Yaffe: No, no, no.

Sruli Fruchter: I can tell you it’s between 2% to 5% out of 100. Okay, so we have the data. 

Nechumi Yaffe: 2% to 5% who are? Opposing Zionism as ideology. Okay.

And then there is like another 12% of people who are just leaning towards it. But, you know, they would never, they would oppose to like hanging. So I think it’s just very. So in America, I’ve studied the community in America.

I’ve done a very deep research in Satmar. So I can tell you Satmar is really opposing Zionism. My study, I asked some of the things. I asked like part, it was like an experimental study about norm violation.

It’s very interesting. And one of the questions that people had to answer is like, would you want the community to change? And now it needs to be changed. So as part of the good way that.

Sruli Fruchter: Which community? The Satmar community?

Nechumi Yaffe: Okay.

So some of the answers that I’ve got is people telling me more people needs to resist the state of Israel as a way of a spiritual strengthening. So living in America and being in that community, you know, I lived in Boro Park and I did the experiment in Williamsburg. I saw first hand that there is a real opposition to Zionism in a way that almost, you know, very rarely exists in Israel. So in Israel, we’re talking about really a very, very small percentile.

In America, it’s much bigger. First of all, Satmar, which opposes Israel is centered in America. And I think it’s easier to believe that Zionism is against being Jewish when you’re in America and you don’t see how Jewish this country is and how Jewish and how religious Zionism is. So it’s easier to believe it when you live in it and you’re just buying off the lies from whoever sells it.

But when you live in it and you see how Shabbos is kept here and how Jewish all the seculars are, they’re not even secular. I feel like there are no seculars in Israel, you know, they’re so Jewish. So it’s harder to believe it. So you’re not as much against Zionism.

Sruli Fruchter: Should Israel be a religious state?

Nechumi Yaffe: Is there any democracy which is religious?

Sruli Fruchter: What do you think? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I mean, I can tell you geopolitically that Germany is quite a religious country. Also, actually, the northern state, the Swedish, they have like a cross on their flag. They have a religious, you know, but they have a very, very deep, especially the northern country, very deep democracy tradition. I think if there is a way to keep democratic values with being Jewish, so this would be the solution.

I think Jewish law just never attended to questions of modern world, so it’s not right. 

Sruli Fruchter: What do you mean by that? 

Nechumi Yaffe: There is hardly any writing through the last 2,000 years of how actually to run a state. I mean, the Rambam wrote in Hilchot Melachim, all kinds of things that are not applicable to this world. You know, there is a lot of Roman, you know, Greek philosophy about running a state in a country because they were doing it.

We were not doing it. We were under, you know, other rulers and those questions we never had to attend. So we didn’t develop a Jewish tradition of how to think about it. So we just lost, we’re not there yet.

We’re lacking the knowledge. So it can’t be just a Jewish religious state. We’re not there. It’s a fantasy.

We need to develop writing and some tradition of how to do it in real world. And then we can do, maybe think of a Jewish, only Jewish state. Right now, Jewish and state just don’t align. It’s like not understanding what the state is and what Jewish is.

We only had 75 years of sovereignty. It’s very, very, very new. 

Sruli Fruchter: When you think about the writings of like Rav Shlomo Goren or Rav Herzog, do you see those as, for our listeners, big, in short, big Israeli rabbis, very big Israeli rabbis who had written about their visions for religious Israel? Do you see that as heading in the direction that you’re imagining?

Nechumi Yaffe: Some of it, some of it, you know, Rav Kook’s, some of his writing, some of it, but it’s very, it’s very preliminary. It’s very hard to, you know, to write policy, real policy, the way policy works from their writing.

It’s inspiring. It’s great. But can you pass a law? Did they know how, you know, the whole, you know, the whole procedure? No. Just let’s be honest about it.

We knew, we knew the game. So I don’t know how it looks like. We need more time. I think we can use the secular law for now.

It’s good.

Sruli Fruchter: If you were making the case for Israel, where would you begin? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I love it. I feel they are at home. I think very special people, a very, very intense, tied up group of people that want to do the good and right thing for their country, for the world, trapped in a very hostile conflict, navigating it.

Is this a case for Israel? I don’t know. 

Sruli Fruchter: What do you think?

Nechumi Yaffe: Depends on the audience. Depends a case in front of whom. What are you trying to advocate? Is it like inner? Is it outer? To whom are we talking? This is what I would, I’m telling to myself, okay? This is the case I make for myself.

I love it. It’s home.

Sruli Fruchter: Should all Israelis serve in the army?

Nechumi Yaffe: All Israelis should contribute to the country with no exception. Is the army the only option? I don’t know.

Can you take people that were educated in a very, very different way, very foreign to the way military works and the laws of military and overnight change it? No. 

Sruli Fruchter: Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes. I think growing up in a Haredi community, the IDF was very foreign, was satan. 

Sruli Fruchter: You’re saying this is from your upbringing or you’re saying from- 

Nechumi Yaffe: My upbringing.

Sruli Fruchter: Oh, wow.

Nechumi Yaffe: And also from my studies. And I want to shift a little over and speak about research that I’ve done on Haredi people violate their community norms and enlisted to the army and their social price. They want to be accepted by the community, but the community is just rejecting them.

And in a line of research, I’ve shown how this affects their well-being and how this affects the community back. Actually, it’s not a good process for the community as well. 

Sruli Fruchter: What’s the effect on the community?

Nechumi Yaffe: They feel that they’re a community, although they are stigmatizing. The more they stigmatize those men who enlisted to the army, the more they feel that their community is not a great community and they have a weaker sense of belonging to the community.

And belonging to the community is a very, very important protective- 

Sruli Fruchter: Just to clarify that the more that they stigmatize the Haredim who decides they draft in the army, the community themselves feels more isolated from Israel? No.

Nechumi Yaffe: They feel that they are not such great people. They’re not such good people.

Sruli Fruchter: They don’t like stigmatizing, but they-

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes.

The more you do it, you actually think you’re not such great and you want to be less associated with your own community. So being part of a community has many, many, many protective factors to your well-being. Consider one of the things that helps you keep your life happier, more content, have meaning. It’s just like the research shows again and again how important it is to be part of a community.

So it’s funny. The way I describe it, it’s like poison. So when you’re trying to poison someone with your own hands, you are getting a burn. So those who stigmatize other people are actually paying a price by themselves.

They are losing the protective factor of the community, which is like a bad … So this is like the inner process of the community itself. But growing up as Haredi, you just don’t understand the army. Growing up as Haredi, you don’t understand well enough secular law. You don’t understand enough what the army is about.

And I think you just need a different kind of education in order to make it this army.

Sruli Fruchter: Why does not understanding secular law or the educational backg round matter in the conversation about, specifically for Haredim, it may be relevant for other populations as well- 

Nechumi Yaffe: Okay, because I feel like being Haredi, you grew up in a very monolithic kind of thinking of right and wrong, very black and white, right and wrong, us and them, Yidden and goyim. So this is like kind of an extreme way of thinking. So taking an extreme group and giving them weapons, well, what can go wrong? So I just think there is no ripeness.

It doesn’t mean they don’t have to serve. It doesn’t mean they don’t have to give away some of their years in order to protect the country, which ends up protecting their own families. It just means that the solutions need to be tailored much better. And also I feel like not acknowledging that going to the army is spiritual, being societal spiritually, it’s just lying.

Because for many years, even religious Zionist boys went to the army, stopped being religious. And this is why they established all mechinot. So all those religious Zionistic boys are being educated from day one—they need to go to the army.

And then they go to the mechinot to prepare them. And then they make it into the army. So taking Haredim, we’re taught from day one that the army is the worst thing. You go into the army and one day you become a goy.

And then expecting them to do it, it just doesn’t work like this. I mean, some social changes are just not doable from one day to the next. 

Sruli Fruchter: I have two quick follow-up questions on that. One, when you’re speaking about the risks of putting a community that doesn’t necessarily have the same educational background as the rest of Israeli society into the army, is that something that you’re speaking about from a theory and an analysis or from research that you’ve done in your work? Like evidenced by- 

Nechumi Yaffe: I mean, we don’t have that many evidence, but I think it’s just like the way you understand the communities just leads you to there.

But again, there is so, so much that can be done tomorrow. The army itself, everyone is like banging the Haredim, but the truth is the army is not ready for this eruah event as well. The army is not ready for the event of 60,000 Haredi men coming into its front door. They’re not equipped.

… It’s just not understanding it. I don’t think one should actually try to start to facilitate and try to do some changing, but it’s just not overnight change.

Sruli Fruchter: So last follow-up on this, then we’ll go to the next question.

Obviously, the Haredi draft is something that’s been in the news. It’s been a subject since the founding of Israel, but more recently it’s been a very big subject specifically since October 7th and the extended miluim for a lot of soldiers and reservists. How do you see or what do you think is the right way forward in that conversation or in that debate?

Nechumi Yaffe: I think the right way forward is establishing options for Haredi boys that want to go. 

Sruli Fruchter: At least for the here and now.

Nechumi Yaffe: For the here and now, tomorrow. I mean, actually there are some yeshivot, but for the here and now, try to get the rabbanim and the politicians to come up with some solutions that so many boys that are actually not learning are cooking, are doing things that don’t need much training and could be done really- 

Sruli Fruchter: To help the war effort in a different way.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes, they can help the war in a different way. There’s so many things that can be done instead of those people in the miluim or reserve.

Sruli Fruchter: Can questioning the actions of Israel’s government and army, even in the context of this war, can that be a valid form of love and patriotism?

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes. Yes. When you love something, you want to fix it. When I want to fix something broken in my home, it’s because I like my home.

It’s not because I hate my home. If I hate my home, I just live it. If I want to fix it, I love it. It’s harder to want to fix than just ignore.

It’s really believing that things can be fixed and looking at what was broken and wanting to fix it. 

Sruli Fruchter: What do you think is the most legitimate criticism leveled against Israel today? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I don’t know if there was real offers for bringing back the hostages and having a ceasefire. I just don’t know if there were any real attempts. Because I feel like we’ve been fed from the news and it’s all orchestrated.

But if there were some real attempts and we haven’t taken it, that’s a real criticism.

Sruli Fruchter: Can you say more about that?

Nechumi Yaffe: I feel like there were rumors about offers of bringing back the hostages and having a ceasefire. And I think there should be Israel’s—Israel should grab it. Israel should not want to keep doing this war, not keep wanting its own people to die, not having to kill other people.

We are killing other people too. And Israel should just grab one of those opportunities. If there were real opportunities, I don’t know. I feel like we don’t know.

And I think those things we’re only going to know in a few years. Was there a real offer? Or was it just people who just wish for an offer, but there was not an offer on the table?

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think the state of Israel is part of the final redemption?

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes. 

Sruli Fruchter: Can you say more about that?

Nechumi Yaffe: I would say a religious answer. I grew up in Haredi and one of the claims growing up in Haredi was that being anti-Zionist, the claim was that Israel had all those refugees from North Africa, the Mizrahi refugees, they all came in religious and Israel made them all secular.

Sruli Fruchter: Growing up, that’s what you had heard yourself. Yes.

Nechumi Yaffe: This was one of the ideas, why are we against the state? Because being Haredi is like not being Zionist. But actually, I’m a history teacher.

This is my claim to fame. And understanding history and also understanding what happened to other people who immigrated outside their own Morocco and Iraq and all those places. What happened to them when they went to other countries? So this is very clear. People immigrated from Morocco, most big percent of them were not religious to begin with.

And they were what we call today traditional and they stay traditional. Actually, a big percent of them became more religious here through Shas. A, B, so many people who immigrated to other countries are completely assimilated. They’re not even Jewish.

Their grandchildren are married people outside the Jewish world as well. So this is just actually, it’s Hashem’s way to protect the Jewish people is to bring them all to Eretz Yisrael and to keep them Jewish. So yes, it is definitely part of your redemption.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think peace between Israelis and Palestinians will happen within your lifetime? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I don’t know.

It’s a question that I’ve asked myself this year a lot. I don’t know.

Sruli Fruchter: I see as we’re talking, you’re getting very emotional. Can you say why? 

Nechumi Yaffe: Because this year made me realize that maybe we’re very much farther than I thought we were.

I thought like, you know, it’s just going to happen. But now I’m thinking maybe we need more time. Maybe there is no correctness. It’s just so frustrating to think that it’s so frustrating.

It’s unbearable. It’s very hard. 

Sruli Fruchter: What do you think makes you feel so connected to this in such a personal way?

Nechumi Yaffe: I hate being in this conflict. I hate the idea that we are being killed and we have to kill.

I just don’t want to be in it. Don’t want to be in it. And I’m always telling myself, okay, so we’re just going to have peace. We’re just going to have peace.

But this year made me realize that we’re more like we’re far than I thought we were. You know, I was thinking, you know, the Abraham Accords. It’s just going to happen. You know, it’s almost happening.

It’s almost happening.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you feel like it’s challenged your religious world? I know we touched on that briefly since October 7th, but I’m curious at least for this aspect. 

Nechumi Yaffe: No, not my religious world. It did challenge my question of being effective. 

Sruli Fruchter: Effective in? 

Nechumi Yaffe: What can I do? The questions that I ask myself, can I move the needle anywhere? Can I do something? I don’t know. It’s hard.

Sruli Fruchter: What do you think should happen with Gaza and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict after the war? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I don’t know. I used to have answers.

I don’t know anymore. I had a plan, you know. They were just becoming, you know, modernized like Saudi Arabia, like Dubai. You know, they were just becoming modernized.

They were just becoming a democracy. They’re just going to, you know, they’re building hospitals. They’re building universities. They want life.

They want to have normal life. And we want life and we want just to be in our own. We want peace. We want to be in our own limited space and just flourish.

And now it seems more complicated. Maybe we want other things. Maybe it seems like they want other things more.

Sruli Fruchter: What things do you think we want and what things do you think they want that you weren’t thinking about before?

Nechumi Yaffe: I think we want more powers than I thought we want.

And we want more space than I thought we want. The government. And I think they want to have it their way more than they want just life or democracy or state. I mean, you look at the billions of dollars that they invested in those tunnels.

And you know the poverty that their own people live in. And you know, they chose. They chose ideas over people. You see it.

So your ability to say, it’s just going to happen. Tick tock. 

Sruli Fruchter: How do you feel Smol Ha’emuni is trying to meet that difficult space? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I think, first of all, like hanging up to hope that yes, there will be hope. Yes, there will be life.

Yes, people would choose right at the end of the day. I think it’s a lot Smol Ha’emuni. And talking about it and having friends who are understanding. And that’s a big deal.

Sruli Fruchter: Where do you identify on Israel’s political and religious spectrum? And do you have friends on the other side? It’s a silly question given our conversation, but I have to ask anyway.

Nechumi Yaffe: Okay, so I identify as a lefty and as a religious person. And I have many, many friends. And actually, my entire family is right wing.

And some of them are extreme right wing. Some of them are really, really extreme right wing for many years. I have a sister who has been voting to Ben-Gvir the past 10 years. So it’s very difficult.

And I feel like I have friends all over the political spectrum. And also all over the religious spectrum. I have friends who are way more religious than I am. People way more extremely religious than I am.

Some of them are my family. Some of them are friends. And I have people who are on all the quantum of being religious. And some of them who identify as atheists as well.

I’m in Tel Aviv University. 

Sruli Fruchter: Has it been hard to maintain those relationships? I think family is always difficult. On the 18Forty channel, which is our main podcast, we always do a series called Intergenerational Divergence about the ways families grapple with differences. I’m curious, in your case, how you find, given your presumably religiously being in the same world, but politically being so diverse.

Nechumi Yaffe: Very hard, very painful. And the Sukkot, all the family came together. And my uncle started speaking against leftists. And he actually attacked me personally.

And he’s an older man. I mean, to everyone else I can fight back. 

Sruli Fruchter: Sukkot is like the Jewish version of Thanksgiving. 

Nechumi Yaffe: Yes, exactly.

And I know to talk. And usually when it’s a conversation or a debate, I can win over. But he’s an older man. I can’t pick up and tell him, like, you’re saying, you know, whatever he’s saying is shtuyot.

You don’t know. You just don’t, whatever. And bring in fact. I can’t.

So I just had to live in the Sukkah. Because I just didn’t. I find it very offensive. And I did not want to, you know.

And also, I feel like he can’t understand it. And he’s only going to get offended. But it’s very, very difficult. And in the family, we are trying, at least when I’m there, not to talk politics.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you find it difficult in your community? Or you find that there are— 

Nechumi Yaffe: My community at the end of the day is my friends and my family. So they know what I think. We talk about it.

And my brother. I have two brothers. They’re so cute. They always tell me, oh, we tease you.

Because you’re the only one who actually brings a new thought to the conversation. We’re like in an ecosystem. We always hear the same opinions. And you come up and you say something else.

It’s so refreshing. And they still like right wing. But it’s like they acknowledge. It’s like a new way of thinking of things.

And they love it. And my friends as well. And also, it’s not so easy in the Tel Aviv University. Because some of them are anti-religious.

And they don’t get it. 

Sruli Fruchter: The other part of your identity falls under attack.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yeah. Because they feel like, oh, my imaginary friend.

My imaginary. My stories. And they actually say it. Like your stories.

And I’m okay with it. I feel like the closer you are to people, the more confrontational you can be. And the more honest in your own conversation you can be with people and tell them. So it’s not like my family.

I can’t really confront them the way I confront my family. But I have some very close friends. And I can talk to them more about my faith and my spirituality and my religion. Also in Tel Aviv University.

Sruli Fruchter: For our last question, number 18, there are a lot of follow-ups in between. So I’m sure you maybe tried and lost track.

Nechumi Yaffe: Yeah, I lost track.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you have more hope or fear for Israel and the Jewish people? 

Nechumi Yaffe: I definitely have more hope for the Jewish people.

Easy. I have a lot of fear towards Israel. I don’t think I don’t have hope at all. I have hope.

I just have a lot of fear. As he asked me, I don’t know when we’ll be able to achieve it. But Yeshuat Hashem k’heref Ayin. This is like my new line.

Hashem can make, you know, flip things overnight. I hang up on it. Yeshuat Hashem k’heref Ayin. 

Sruli Fruchter: That’s beautiful. Where did you get that from?

Nechumi Yaffe: It’s Yishayahu. Right? Actually, it’s … Here it is … Saadia Gaon is the one who is saying it. Okay, good enough, right?

Sruli Fruchter: Yeah, no perfect.

Nechumi Yaffe: Rabbi Nissim Gaon is one of the… In the 8th century. Right? … Okay, it’s good.

Sruli Fruchter: I remember when I spoke with Yossi Klein Halevi, he’s telling me the story with Hadassah Froman, where he said, Hadassah, Yesh lanu tikva? Do we have hope? And she said, Ein lanu tikva. Aval yesh lanu emuna.

Nechumi Yaffe: That’s nice.

Sruli Fruchter: Yeah.

We don’t have hope, we have faith. Well, Nechumi, thank you so much for answering our 18 questions. Any questions we didn’t ask that we should have asked? 

Nechumi Yaffe: No. I think it was pretty intensive.

Sruli Fruchter: Okay, great. Thank you so much.

Nechumi Yaffe: Pleasure. 

Sruli Fruchter: That was a really wonderful interview, and one that I especially appreciated for the emotional sentiment and the vulnerability that Nechumi displayed throughout the interview.

There’s a lot more that I’m still curious about, in regards to Smol Ha’emuni, in regards to her work with the Haredi community, and how both of those things will continue to develop in Israel. But we have many more thinkers to go, and many more opportunities to continue learning about it. So before we head out, as usual, if you have questions you want us to ask, or guests that you want us to feature, shoot us an email at info18Forty.org. And a special thank you, as usual, to our friends Josh Weinberg and Gilad Brounstein.

Josh, actually, it was his friend Eitan who videoed this episode, and Gilad for editing the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I can’t wait to see you next week. And until next time, keep questioning and keep thinking.

This transcript was produced by Sofer.AI.