Rachelle Fraenkel: ‘I had expectations from humanity’

Transcripts are lightly edited. Please excuse any imperfections.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think the state of Israel is part of the final redemption?

Rachelle Fraenkel: It might be. Shalom. I’m Rachelle Fraenkel and I learn and teach Torah here in Israel and this is 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers from 18Forty.

Sruli Fruchter: This is our 10th episode and our 10th guest for the podcast. 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers. If you’re good at math or have a calculator, that means that we have 30 Israeli thinkers left to go. So if there are people that we don’t know about who you think we should be interviewing, questions that you think we should be asking, shoot us an email info@18Forty.org because we are listening. From 18Forty, this is 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers and I’m your host, Sruli Fruchter.

18Forty Israeli Thinkers is a new podcast that interviews Israel’s leading voices to explore those critical questions people are having today on Zionism, the Israel-Hamas war, democracy, morality, Judaism, peace, Israel’s future, and so much more. Every week we introduce you to fresh perspectives and challenging ideas about Israel from across the political spectrum that you won’t find anywhere else. So if you’re the kind of person who wants to learn, understand and dive deeper into Israel, then join us on our journey as we pose 18 pressing questions to the 40 Israeli journalists, scholars and religious thinkers you need to hear from.

Today, we bring on a range of Israeli thinkers for this podcast: religious, political, academic, journalistic. That’s very much the goal here, to give a breadth and a survey of the leading voices, the important voices in Israel. Today’s guest is a religious thinker that we actually had on our main channel, the 18Forty Podcast for one of our first series on God, Rabbanit Rachelle Fraenkel. As a Religious Zionist educator and leader, Rabbanit Fraenkel is an Israeli woman immersed in the world of Jewish law, Jewish thought, and Jewish life. She teaches halacha at Nishmat, where she is also a yoetzet responder for Nishmat’s halacha hotline and she is the director of Matan’s advanced halacha program. She studied at Bar-Ilan, Lindenbaum, Nishmat, Machon Ariel, Yo’atzot Halacha training program, and she was in the first graduating class of Matan’s Talmudic Institute. So her qualifications and her investment as an Israeli religious thinker is clearly unquestioned.

But her professional investment in credentials and expertise is not her only connection to our questions. One of the points I keep returning to in these podcasts, because I think it’s so important for people to realize, and especially for myself to internalize, is that for all of our Israeli thinkers, these questions and conversations are not just interesting abstractions, but rather are their lived realities. In Rabbanit Fraenkel’s case, she became a religious figure both in and beyond Israel in June 2014, when her son, Naftali, Hashem yikom damo, was one of three Israeli boys kidnapped and killed by Hamas terrorists. Her voice of deep faith and hope rang in many people’s ears and has continued to become a source of strength even today. She speaks on behalf of Jewish unity before audiences across the Jewish world and is a co-founder of the Jerusalem Unity Prize and Unity Day project in memory of her 16-year-old son, Naftali.

At different points of this conversation and both before and after the interview, Rabbanit Fraenkel laughed to me and said that the one question she wasn’t sure we ever answered was why we wanted to include her voice. I think she said something to the effect of “I’m just still not sure why anything that I have to say is interesting or useful.” And based on what I just explained before, I’m not sure that anyone else is sharing that question. But if I had to answer it, I suppose my answer would be that she is a woman of faith who has lived and grappled and taught and faced and learned some of the most pressing questions about Judaism and Israel in theology and in reality. The tragedy of her son Naftali’s killing is when the world came to understand that and to see that. And in a time like today, when Jews and Israelis are burdened by the magnitude of October 7 and its aftermath, a voice of wisdom like hers is a deeply important one we all need to listen to.

It was a great privilege for me to speak with Rabbanit Fraenkel and explore some of the many questions we have, and I hope you all enjoy. But before we get into it, I will make my classic pitch. Say it along with me. If you have questions you want us to ask or guests that you want us to feature, shoot us an email at info@18Forty.org and be sure to subscribe and share with friends so that we can reach new listeners. And now here is 18 Questions with Rachelle Fraenkel.

As an Israeli and as a Jew, how are you feeling at this moment in Israeli history?

Rachelle Fraenkel: In the first few months we constantly heard people describing the whole event as biblical. And I think the point was both to express and to help us internalize the proportion of the events and the magnitude. The fact that it’s going to change the landscape for generations, that something really huge is happening, and also that it renders extreme measures in response. And now something weird is happening because we’ve been in this experience for almost a year now. Soon it’s gonna be here.

And from this historic perspective, you know, zoom out. It’s just as biblical. Just as we’re in the midst of the event. We don’t even know at what point of the event we are, is the worst behind us? Are we only in the very beginning of something much bigger?

So as far as, you know, the historic perspective, it’s the same. But on a psychological and social level, it’s different because human beings are very creatures of habit, and we get used to everything. So you walk around and thank God the restaurants are full, people are living their life, and it’s weird. It’s like you can forget for a second that there is an existential threat and beyond. And then you zoom into that restaurant, and because Israeli society is as it is, so each and every person there, you know, knows maybe a family of kidnapped, several people that lost relatives in the war, maybe a few people whose children were murdered on October 7, people who are wounded. Definitely people all over there have relatives in and out of reserve duty.

So there’s something about like the duality of… Because it’s been going on for so long, the sense of emergency is kind of, you know, lowered and thank God life is going on. And, you know, we’re all expecting the baby boom, but also the… In fact, nothing changed. You know, in fact, we’re really in the middle of this. And being such a tiny, tiny country, I’m not even sure if people can really understand how small this society is and how when you speak about, you know, the different splits and drifts and opinions, and it’s all meshed together, it’s not like you’re not like six, you know, the Wikipedia. Six steps away from the next person, you’re maybe a step and a half, and you wake up in a bad mood in the morning, it directly affects your child that might be fighting on the frontier.

So how do I feel in this moment in history? I feel that it’s a sobering moment. Not in a bad sense necessarily. I mean, also in a bad sense, but this illusion, like, you know, when you live between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, I actually live right in the center between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. And you get the whole spiritual qualities and tensions of Jerusalem, and you get the cultural life and progressiveness of Tel Aviv, and it could easily be la la land. And then everything’s very real. So it’s sobering in the sense that you connect back to reality, to life and death issues, to existential issues, and even to immediate threats to the long term existence.

But even that, I feel, is in… I’ll give you an example. There was this night, I think, in April, when the Iranians were sending missiles and drones. And also it was a very surreal situation because we get warning that maybe in 9 hours they’re on their way, they’ll get here. You had no idea what to expect. So it so happens that where we live, there was, on one hand there were no sirens, and on the other hand, you can see the whole fireworks, like the most expensive fireworks ever. And 2:00 at night, we walk out, we’re looking at all, you know, everything that’s going on. And there were first missile and whatever, and at some point there’s noise again. So we go outside and we realize that, no, these are our pilots in the, you know, whatever, F-35 going to stop the missiles on intercept the missiles that are on the way.

And I was saying to myself, whoa, this cannot be taken for granted. This notion of those are my pilots in these fancy aircraft going to protect the sense of Jewish sovereignty and being able to protect your life and having a military. And it’s never the Jew in the pogroms. It’s never, I mean, it was on October 7, but that was like people say, like a day in the Holocaust, right? Not a day, maybe an hour. So this idea of keeping proportions, meaning, yes, there are big questions, there are big threats, but on the other hand, this tremendous sense of appreciation and gratitude and never taking for granted this notion of, oh, so it’s my pilot up there.

Sruli Fruchter: I’m also curious for you. I mean, of course, like when you first spoke on the 18Forty podcast for our series on God. I think actually four years ago, and I think around now, is ten years since your own son Naftali, Hashem yakom damo, was abducted and killed along with two other Israeli teens. I’m curious how that factors in for your experience of October 7 and everything afterward.

Rachelle Fraenkel: There were very few moments of post-trauma triggering, but in general, it was all very difficult, just like for everybody else, you know, our children were in the army. All my nephews were in the army. We personally knew people whose children were, at first we thought kidnapped. Then we realized murdered. Over the months since then, we’ve been in countless funerals. And again, I was trying before to give a sense of how small this country. You stop a person in the street anywhere. And they’ve attended a few military funerals since, for the last ten months.

So it was difficult. It was a nightmare. But just like everybody else, we had our unique point of view for a while, because people who were involved with their family members were missing, might have called and asked how to deal with certain things. We were in touch with the negotiation teams that… That we had known through our experience, though, in our experience, each family had their team holding their hand for them. And here the magnitude was such that they were down in Be’eri trying to negotiate. They were in Tel Aviv, in The Kirya trying to run some of the show.

So there were points where what was most disturbing was the gap in the experience. Like what a hug we each individually got from Am Yisrael, from society in Israel, and how different the experience was when at one point there were 3000 families that thought their child might be, might be in Gaza. I mean, within a few days, the picture cleared up. But realizing the difference in the experience wasn’t so easy. And just like anybody else in Israel, we all at that point asked ourselves, so what’s our role?

So for me, it was in some instances being in touch with communities in the diaspora that were desperate to hear what can they do? And maybe to try to understand. And for a while there, I had a perspective on it. Today it’s different. Our children were found after 18 days. Today it’s 321 days into the war. When a critical, acute pain turns into a chronic pain, it’s a whole different phenomena. And I know that. I don’t know. I understand that. I don’t understand. So it’s still about remembering, about empathizing.

At the time, for us, part of what kept us sane was this notion that we’re not alone in this. It’s not only your children, it’s our children. And sometimes people think that these are just gestures that they might be doing to make themselves feel good. They don’t mean much to the families. And I know that’s not true. I know it means the world to the families. And the cumulative effect is also very significant. So I was out there trying to say that. Trying to say, make it personal, divide the names. And all these things happen, not because of me, necessarily. So, just like anybody else, we’re trying to find our niche.

And I must say, it’s the same Hamas. It’s the same kidnapping. And yet, you know, as different as the experience is, Hamas is the same Hamas. The motivations are the same motivations. Kidnapping is kidnapping, murder is murder. And I pray that everybody possible should return home healthy. And also that the ones that we know that aren’t alive, their family, should merit this grace of being able to bring a child home or a parent home, and bury them b’Kever Yisrael. It’s the beginning of all the healing that comes afterwards. I feel it’s a very necessary stage. So it wasn’t what we were hoping for, but I know acutely to appreciate how important it was.

Sruli Fruchter: Thank you for sharing that. What has been Israel’s greatest success and greatest mistake in the current war against Hamas?

Rachelle Fraenkel: So, okay, we’ll start with the mistakes and the failures. Obviously, in October 7 itself, for hours and hours, the military collapsed, our defense lines collapsed. And as we learn more about the events, the thorough investigation didn’t happen yet. But as we hear more about it, it seems like part of the root of the failure. I won’t say it’s the only one, is this ability to deny what your eyes are seeing, an inability to accept facts that don’t fit into your chosen framework. Apparently, there was a lot of intelligence. There were quite a few warnings.

Sruli Fruchter: Well, just to clarify, one point of the question, specifically referring to the post October 7, once the war had begun, when Israel started to target Hamas in Gaza.

Rachelle Fraenkel: So what I said so far was what brought us to that point. And I think it’s significant because that was the phenomenon in 1973, and it seems like it’s a phenomenon again. My mind is made up. Don’t confuse me with facts. So that is a major failure as far as running the war. We’re a very opinionated nation, and I have my own opinions, but I’m no military expert, so I won’t try to go that way.

If I add something to the pre-October 7 era, our social fabric was deeply torn. And probably the most symbolic thing for that was Yom Kippur that preceded Simchat Torah. And it almost sounds, oh, sure, if we can’t pray together on Yom Kippur, this is what we get on Simchat Torah. And I don’t really mean it on the mystical level. I mean it on the symbolic level. You know, if it got that bad, we had it coming. And one of the ways we had it coming was because our neighbors and enemies had recognized that and thought it might be the right time. I think they underestimated our true strength. But, you know, often they quote Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, saying that, oh, the Israeli society is like spider webs. And then we say, yeah, but that’s the strongest per millimeter material in the world.

So I didn’t answer what happened after October 7, but making sure that there’s a deep change after that, I’m not sure is happening.

On the success side, obviously, both on a military and social level, recruitment of people immediately, it has a very military sense to it because, you know, if you can gather 300,000 reserve soldiers in no time, and people leave their, you know, big trips in Indonesia, whatever it is, to come back home to serve, and if within hours, people on their own initiative, make their own orders, get their own equipment together and go down to do what they can, that has both a civil meaning, but also a military meaning.

And, of course, the civilian organizations were unbelievable, in a sense. The official government also collapsed for a few days. Everything was just too much. I don’t know if any system could have stood all the needs at that point. Evacuation of hundreds of them, unbelievable. But the nonprofits, the civil life, the volunteers, we can speak for hours and hours about that. And one of the interesting things that happened there, and again, that’s the mirror picture of the Yom Kippur story, is that the same people who were unbearable for each other are the ones that reach out and sometimes literally gave their life to stand.

So if you talk about… I have a general in mind who has already left the army. And over the years, I was so upset with the things that he said, and he’s saying today, too, and his opinions, and I thought he caused terrible damage to our society, et cetera, et cetera. That person on October 7, took out his uniform and went directly into fire time and time and time again and saved many people. And when I continue arguing with him, one of my missions is to keep in mind this is the same person who had no problem to die to save anyone that day. Organizations that were part of the fight against the reform, the judicial reform.

And people, some people were very, very upset at things that they did. Instead were the same organizations that ran the whole civil effort from doing unbelievable stuff for weeks on end, not just that day, for months, until government bodies took over. And if you speak about the people knocking on the doors in Be’eri, Be’eri was definitely left-wing kibbutz, okay.

And the people knocking on the doors trying to get people out when it was possible. And people weren’t willing to open the door because they were terrorists trying to fake as IDF soldiers to make, just to murder them. So, you know, after saying Shema Yisrael and identifying as Jews, they asked, “Where are you from?” They said, “I’m IDF.” “What IDF?” “From Otniel.” Okay. Otniel is south of Hebron area. Very considered extreme settlers, very right wing. Those were the people that … Elchanan Kalmanson, that went from door to door and saved people. And that experience is also deeply embedded in our collective memory.

So keeping that in mind, I hope we can continue arguing in maybe a bit of a different way to try to keep that in mind. You know, it’s the same people, the ones that were at each other’s throats and the ones doing unbelievable things to take care of you.

Sruli Fruchter: How have your religious views changed since October 7?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I’m not sure my views changed, but some things became more pointed. I come from a family that was Religious Zionist like I am and my parents made aliyah earlier in 1955. So they definitely were founders. So their outlook is definitely Atchalta De’Geulah and that what’s going on here in the State of Israel has religious importance and significance. But when the slogan is “Medinat Yisrael reishit tzemichat geulateinu” that the State of Israel is the beginning of our redemption, my father always says “Halevai” – God willing.

And it’s not that he doesn’t recognize the miracles of what we call kibbutz galuyot, people coming from all the diasporas and sovereignty, et cetera, et cetera. But at least my understanding of it is you can’t take it for granted. And just because processes begin, it doesn’t mean that they can’t be missed out and opportunity can’t be lost. So being in such a situation and the imminent danger to, I don’t know if the existence of the State of Israel, but definitely our safety, to me it only emphasizes this issue of this is something to work for, to fight for, to strive for, and to be spiritually deserving. Okay, so it’s not new to me, but I think in such periods it’s more pointed. There are other aspects I don’t know if you want to speak about now, but maybe we’ll come up.

Sruli Fruchter: Well, I’m curious which other aspects are.

Rachelle Fraenkel: Notion of evil and…

Sruli Fruchter: Yeah.

Rachelle Fraenkel: So ten years ago or a little bit afterwards, when our son was kidnapped, Rav Adin Steinsaltz told me, you know, when we pray, we say that God creates peace and creates everything. And Rabbi Steinsaltz was a bit of a cynic. So he says that’s just politically correct because the original verse in Isaiah says that God creates peace and creates evil. And Judaism doesn’t deny the evil. Okay. It doesn’t. You know, most lines in Judaism, you see evil, you admit it, you have to deal with it. But the question of what is your role in front of it is “lovers of God hate evil.”

And I think maybe one of the people that was most relevant this year was one of the interviews with one of the last interviews of Rabbi Sacks was of this person coming to saying, you know, we’ve been asking you for years and years, why do bad things happen to good people, etcetera? And you’ve always avoided it. And then the rabbi says, oh, I actually have what to say. He said, oh, really? Did you solve the problem of evil? And he says, no, I don’t really know why, but I think I know why God hides this explanation from us, and that is because if we understand the full picture, we might soften towards the evil. We might feel we need to make room for it in our life and be accepting of it. And I’ll speak in religious language, which is my language. God wants us to fight evil so we might not understand because we need the ability to fight it.

One of the greatest heartbreaks of October 7 for me was realizing that some of my neighbors can go that low. And the atrocities, you don’t have to see the 47 minutes video that, you know, journalists, my neighbors and nephews and close friends collected and took care of the remainders of the most unbelievable cruelty. And for me, it was a heartbreak because I have expectations from humanity. So in my, you know, bringing it together to my religious worldview, I think there’s a lot of experience with nations that were powerful and maybe from time to time, wicked, and nations, at least the way we view ourselves over history, we were very weak for many years, and we try to remain righteous.

The challenge of the State of Israel is the challenge of being powerful and righteous. And usually that translates into having a society that’s compassionate and just and taking care of people and seeing people, et cetera, et cetera. There’s a point in time where the challenge of being powerful and righteous is being able to, and being willing to use your power to fight evil. And I feel that’s definitely where we’re at after October 7. And it’s the kind of feeling that, not even feeling, like, mission statement that wears off. And we have to understand that we can’t let go of it. And I’m not talking about, God forbid, every last baby in Gaza. That’s not the issue. The issue is Hamas as a government, Hamas as the whole system that produced this evil. And for a simple reason. I want to live. Yeah, that’s a profound religious value. Appreciating life.

Sruli Fruchter: What do you look for in deciding which Knesset party to vote for?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I basically need representatives who I trust and I think are capable, and I need people who share my values and represent my part of society. So this last part is a bit of a tribal part. In other words, if I am, you know, in Israel, there are a few educational systems, for instance. So a person that, you know, it’s the secular, the Jewish secular, the Arab, the religious Zionist, the Haredi.

So often a person would vote for someone who would make sure that their share of, you know, their part of society is well represented, their value system, etcetera. So the tendency for me would be to vote for someone from my world, and that is under the condition that I feel I can trust the figures themselves. If that is in conflict, it’s a big question, and I don’t know what the answer to that will be. Another option would be the major parties that have people who share my values, but it’s not necessarily a clear part of their mission statement. So when you feel that the people that represent you aren’t necessarily the ones worthy of your trust, you’re in a problem. So I’ll have to figure that out.

Sruli Fruchter: Which is more important for Israel, Judaism or democracy?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I’m curious if you found one person that answered you that thought these things are really in conflict or contradicting. It’s a system with different centers that have tensions between them. But I think if Israel were less democratic, it would be less Jewish. A lot of the sources of at least my democratic point of view are deeply ingrained in Jewish culture and religion and writing and thought. And if it were less Jewish, it were less democratic because it would be, I think, less reflective of the ideas of the founders, less reflective of the society itself.

The society, to a very large extent is either religious or very traditional. Or traditional. Most secular Jews have strong bonds to tradition. So there are some basic senses that it can’t be less Jewish. But I wonder how you feel about the question, is it working? Every time people probably say, oh, but what are you?

Sruli Fruchter: Yeah, I’m curious if or when the two ever come into conflict, which do you think should win out?

Rachelle Fraenkel: So it’s not a zero-sum game. It’s about society constantly negotiating the social contract, finding ways to reflect the values that it holds dear, and often it’s compromises and it’s the way it should be. Yeah.

Sruli Fruchter: Should Israel treat its Jewish and non-Jewish citizens the same?

Rachelle Fraenkel: So that’s another question. I’m not sure why you ask it. Israeli citizens, Jews, Arab, Druze, Bedouins are equal before the law and actually have systems not only ensuring their equality, but also supporting their cultural differences and educational differences, etcetera. I imagine every society has to. There are complaints and things are not always perfect. But as far as the question itself, no question. Of course, when I try to think where this question might be coming from, so I hear the chanting in the world saying that this is an apartheid state. So either they weren’t in Israel or they weren’t in an apartheid. It doesn’t even begin, go to the cities, go and vote on election day. So it seems to me such a simple question. Yeah.

Sruli Fruchter: Now that Israel already exists, what’s the purpose of Zionism?

Rachelle Fraenkel: So, my perspective on Zionism is a Tzioni Dati perspective, and it sees it within the context of Torah, of Jewish history, of Jewish life. And hence, Zionism cannot be something that at some point is, you know, you check it off and you say, oh, I’m done. It’s first and foremost establishing the sovereignty and the life in Eretz Yisrael. It’s developing the land, both that could be translated into agriculture, it could be translated into high tech. It’s doing everything you can to create a just society, a compassionate society, a society that has the best relationships amongst it. And the next step, and hopefully, this can happen as we go. And I think it is happening to a large extent, is this idea that if we’re back as a player amongst the nations, we’re back to our role, hopefully being a blessing to the nations. And this is in no sense a supremacy. It’s a responsibility.

Hopefully, we can share the blessings that we feel here and bring benefit to humanity, which I feel we are. I mean, if it’s, I don’t know, drainage systems or water or high tech or agriculture. And at this point in time, it might also be dealing with the… For instance, what Hamas represents and being able to… To do what it takes to fight it. The will to live is something that I think we’re showing that is very strong in this country. And there are parts of the Western world that feel almost suicidal. So that might be not what we were originally hoping for. But at this point in time, also, part of our contribution to the world.

Sruli Fruchter: Is opposing Zionism inherently antisemitic?

Rachelle Fraenkel: Opposing Israel is not antisemitic. Having anti-Israeli views… Go ahead. Okay. I mean, sounds legitimate. I can be upset with… I don’t know what France does and what… Anti-Zionism is saying that this ethnicity does not deserve a nation-state. It might be a denial of its connection to the Land of Israel. I always remember how in that huge building in New York, the UN, they had these resolutions saying that there is no historic connection between the Jews and Jerusalem. It’s like denying historical connection. And you say, but what does it say on the outside? I don’t know. The English version.

Sruli Fruchter: Like the plowshares and swords.

Rachelle Fraenkel: Yeah. Who said that? Oh, Isaiah. He’s like a Jew from Jerusalem. It’s like the contradictions are from within. So if you want to deny history, deny … You’re treating this nation different from any nation in the world. Yeah, it sounds to me antisemitic. Now, I do know some prominent anti-Zionist Jews, but we’ve always excelled on auto-antisemitism, so that doesn’t create a logical problem for me. In general, holding Jews to a different standard than the whole world. And again, that also applicable in the criticism that we’re getting for this war. Yeah, it seems to me antisemitic.

Sruli Fruchter: One of the questions a listener emailed us to ask as a follow-up to this question is, if someone says that in theory, I support Zionism, Jews having their own state, but I don’t want it to come at the expense of Palestinians, is that something that you view as an illegitimate form of opposing Zionism?

Rachelle Fraenkel: So I’ll say this. When you say support Zionism, I don’t expect everybody in the world to support Zionism actively. Okay. But being an anti-Zionist is a different story. Okay. Saying, oh, this is a lovely idea, except I’m afraid it’s at the expense of whatever. That’s often just not connected to reality because nation-states were always, you know, started in some conflict. And I don’t go ahead saying Pakistan doesn’t have a right to live, or India. They all got their independence, ’47, ’48. Like Israel, there are tons of conflicts there. And I’m sure, you know, the different sects, it’s one at expense of the other. But saying, so, since there is a conflict there that I don’t know that is solvable, the whole notion of Zionism is no longer legitimate, that’s something that seems to me childish. It’s like something very, very naive.

Sruli Fruchter: And should Israel be a religious state?

Rachelle Fraenkel: Again, I would try to understand what the question means. However you understand, that’s always what you answer. Not in any forceful way. Yes, in many ways chosen by the people.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you have any examples that come to mind?

Rachelle Fraenkel: We’re talking about negotiations amongst the civil society about how do we want our Shabbat to look, how do we want Pesach to look. There are issues that are more problematic because, like, the marriage system is based on, to some extent, on religious law. And from the Jewish law perspective, I’m not sure it’s possible to do anything else and remain one people. But I don’t feel that is, you know, when we start discussing that, is that it is as contentious as it seems. So the state itself, even philosophically, a state is not religious, okay? In history, we had Sanhedrin and we had the king, and we had the priests and the Kohanim. King has its own considerations. And a state itself is not a religious practice. A state is a form of rule. Specifically, this society has to decide in what ways it wants to be Jewish. We’re constantly doing it.

Sruli Fruchter: Should all Israelis serve in the army?

Rachelle Fraenkel: All Israelis? First of all, there is about 20% of Israeli Arabs that are very conflicted in army service and are offered national service. That’s a non-military option to contribute to your society. So just to start with, there’s no such thing as all Israelis serving in the army. The big question is with the Haredi part of Jewish society. On a religious and ideological level, I think absolutely, yes. I mean, it’s a great mitzvah. I can speak for hours about the virtues of doing it and the problems, morally and religiously, with not doing it and letting other people do it for you. So that’s the ideological level.

On the practical level, I don’t think people can be coerced into serving in the army. So hopefully there are processes that… That will bring more and more of the Haredi society to do their share in the service. I think we have to create conditions for it to be possible to walk into the army a Haredi boy and come out of the army a Haredi boy. Just as Haredi, it’s a very closed society, and it has its own codes and prices. And I… It’s definitely not simple. I’m not sure it’s going to happen as a process. And I’m not sure we’re on the right route to make it happen. Should it? Sure it should.

Sruli Fruchter: If you were making the case for Israel, where would you begin?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I was born… I’m a Sabra, you know, hence the apologies for my English. I don’t even know what that, you know, like, where would that question come from? It’s like, to me, Israel, sure. What are you asking? But then I tried to think, okay, so that depends who the audience is. I would not try to justify my existence, but to make a sales pitch for this place, which is amazing. We can speak for hours and hours and hours about how the polaroid society is, and yet the solidarity you’ll find here is now like no other society. I’ll say some societies are very homogeneous.

This is a society that, on the one hand, is an immigrant society from 70 countries, and on the other hand, there’s this adhesiveness inside. Like, there’s family life, there is culture, there’s a richness of the experience of being here. There’s high sciences and high tech and birth rate. Birth rate like nowhere else in the world, in developed countries. So I return to this notion of people are… They have a quest for life here that is reflected by the choice to have children, the choice to have families, the choice to live on.

And when I look at Western societies, I’m not sure if that’s what’s happening in other places. So I would make the case for a place that against all odds and in very difficult security circumstances, is a place whose citizens want to be in and are joyful. That would be mostly the contribution to the world, et cetera, et cetera.

Sruli Fruchter: Can questioning the actions of Israel’s government and army, even in the context of this war, be a valid form of love and patriotism?

Rachelle Fraenkel: Definitely. I mean, again, we’re a passionate people. We have passionate debates, passionate criticism because we care so much. And then there’s a question to whose ears to run to Hague or to organize BDS. I’m not sure that’s patriotic, actually. I think it isn’t. But anything in a debate or in discussions. Sure. Absolutely. And it’s absolutely necessary when we talk about the wishful thinking that brought this war, to the surprise, et cetera, the conception if people would argue loudly, maybe we would be saved of that. People have to express their opinions even if they oppose the general idea.

Sruli Fruchter: What do you think is the most legitimate criticism leveled against Israel today?

Rachelle Fraenkel: Some of the, when you listen to the criticism that, you know, on campuses, some of it sounds like, you know, fiction, you know, where did you bring this from? And people tell themselves a lot of things that, I have no idea factually where it comes from. In the internal debate, everything is so complicated that it’s hard for me to judge. But it seems sometimes that we’re trying to be everything to everybody and being maybe more decisive, quicker to act, could be in some situations more effective and on the long run save lives, etcetera.

But we’re constantly trying to prove that we’re the most moral and the most careful and listening to the United States and listening to the… and all these are very, very legitimate interests. I’m not criticizing them. It’s just, it creates a situation where part of the bottom line is that things are being dragged out and there might have been a different way to run this. Yeah, that to me is… But maybe I’m saying what I identify with and I’m not aware of a lot of the things that are being said. I mean, I’m aware, but I don’t see how they… The point.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think the State of Israel is part of the final redemption?

Rachelle Fraenkel: It might be. I think that, of course, the words “final redemption” are unclear, but in Israel, when people say “messianic,” it’s usually used as a slur. But the notion of moshiach, of geulah, of redemption, is deeply rooted in Jewish religion, culture, tradition. And there’s a lot to it. But it’s mostly this belief that maybe an optimistic belief or hopeful belief, that if we all work hard and invest ourselves and make ourselves as righteous as possible, as deserving as possible, we can bring this world to better places. And that, to me, sounds like a wonderful idea.

And in the sense of Jewish history, that has a sense of special existence, that is, we can come back to live as a nation without the hardships of years, of years of exile, without enemies. What I’m quoting is a Maimonides idea of redemption and create more of a utopic society. So that is definitely, for me, part of the mission. Will we be successful? Halevai, like my father says, hopefully we could be deserving in deeds. And what I mean is, in a practical level and in a spiritual level.

Sruli Fruchter: You were talking before that trying to make ourselves deserving of it is wonderful in theory, but that seemed to suggest it may not necessarily imply that doing everything right can bring about that result. Do you think that whether or not the State of Israel actualizes that might be potential, what do you think that depends on?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I think the first step is not being in gratitude … If you have a deep ingratitude, that’s a form of heresy. So understanding that being a sovereign Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael, and what we call kibbutz galuyot, people coming from all over the world back to the Land of Israel, these are, in historical senses, miracles and definitely tremendous grace. So being deeply aware and appreciative of that is the first step.

Beyond that, our hands are full of missions, missions of security, of sovereignty, of justice, of solidarity, of unity, of compassion, of blessing inwards, blessing outwards. And hopefully this process continues in positive directions. And what final geulah looks like, I have no idea. But again, this notion of … This world, okay, the difference, you know, it doesn’t become a utopic world that is not connected to current reality. It becomes a world that is a realistic world without some of the troubles that are plaguing our world. And in Jewish context, it’s all of that happening in Eretz Yisrael, in a sovereign world, government, etcetera. And in my religious world, also God, this is the first time where we’re actually mentioning, coming back to dwell in Beit HaMikdash.

That’s a religious, a religious aspect of it that, you know, I don’t see it happening in the close future, but all the options are open further. And that comes with the prophecies of that being a place of worship for all nations, that being a place of peace, a place of Jerusalem, playing the role that it is supposed to have for all nations. So that’s a view. If today what you mostly experience is Jerusalem as a place of conflict, Jerusalem as a place of tension. The prophets speak of Jerusalem as a place of peace, a place that infers blessing to the whole world. Yeah, that’s what I’m looking forward to. And is the State of Israel on the way? Hopefully.

Sruli Fruchter: Is messianism helpful or harmful to Israel?

Rachelle Fraenkel: Messianism. When you say the “ism” part, it sounds like socialism and the big movements of the 20th century. This is an idea, we described it in that sense. It’s the driving power of Jewish belief, of Jewish history, even of Jewish survival, this idea that there are things to look forward to in the worst of circumstances, when it’s shoved around like a curse.

If I’ll blame someone that they’re, I don’t know, a lunatic progressive, and they’ll blame me, I’m extremist messianic, whatever, and I’ll go chas v’chalila to blow up a mosque and God forbid. God forbid, that would be terrible, terrible damage. But in the deep sense, this idea that, again, we’ll quote Rabbi Sacks, he speaks about the difference between optimism and hope. So optimism is this, you can call it Israeli quality, where you say it will be okay, and it’s passive and you don’t take responsibility, you’re not vulnerable. And hope is the place where you say, I’m fully invested, I’m going to work hard, we’re going to come together, we’re going to work at this, and together we’ll bring this country, this world, to a better place. That’s in the depth of this notion of redemption.

There are things, and also from the perspective of a Religious Zionist, it’s not assuming that things will just drop from heavens. I’ll say the more mystical perspective is we have to merit things on a spiritual level, and then whatever needs to happen will happen. And from the more place I come from, we have to merit things on the spiritual level, and we have to work hard on the reality level and help things happen. The whole notion of creation of human beings is God turning to them and saying, you be my partner here, be my partner for developing this world, be my partner for preserving this world, be my partner in processes of redemption. For me, the State of Israel is an extended part of that and a specific part of this process.

Sruli Fruchter: So this we’ll only follow up before we move on earlier. And I think even when we’re speaking now about moshiach and in terms of geulah as it relates to Israel, you spoke with a little bit more hesitancy, which I wasn’t surprised by because I think that even on the 18Forty podcast that goes along a lot with your religious philosophy of that, like might be, which reminded me a little bit of Rav Soloveitchik. I’m curious if I were to adjust the question and ask the sureness or the certainty about Israel’s promise as messianic potential, does that at all change your perspective? Do you view a certain confidence that the State of Israel, as opposed to it might be someone answering an… Absolutely.

Rachelle Fraenkel: So when I say might be, it’s not a question about the identity of the state, it’s a question about will it achieve that? Go. So does it have potential? Absolutely, it has potential. Okay. And again, opposed to religious sects that believe that it was born in sin because it’s secular, or it was born in sin because it’s at the expense of somebody, et cetera, et cetera. So I definitely believe the potential is there. And not only the potential, when I spoke of gratitude, it’s the big leaps forward that it already took in Jewish history.

Okay. Can we mess it up? Absolutely. Both on practical levels. When you read the Bible, the Tanakh, there’s … the historic philosophy of the Bible, there are always the immediate reasons why things happen, political, whatever. And then there’s the spiritual reason why the Jews had it coming. Okay. And the prophet always speaks about the religious aspect, the spiritual aspect of it. And the kings and the political players always speak about the practicalities. So this is something we have to hold both sides of it, being deservant as a society and working practically on everything that has to happen.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think peace between Israelis and Palestinians will happen within your lifetime?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I can wish to live a very long time, yeah. I hope that peace between Israel and the Arab world will continue. I think the Abraham Accords are a very hopeful venue, et cetera. And the reason they’re a successful venue is because the Palestinian element was put aside and said, we won’t let this define everything that happens. So we confined ourselves with, you know, the Saudis and the Emiratis and etc,, and things that seemed like a fantasy with the relationship with Arab countries can actually happen. Specifically, the situation with the Palestinians doesn’t make me hopeful. Knowing the education system, hearing the, you know, sometimes you have a pivotal moment there. So when you hear the phone call of this Hamas guy calling to tell the wonderful news to his parents, with my own hands, I murdered ten Jews.

He grew up within a society, within educational system that raised this generation. I don’t see that changing very soon. And people quote Golda as saying that they love their children more than they hate us. I think the practical translation is, and there’ve been people that have proven it … let’s say, more than they wanted their own independence. Time and time again, they wanted the negation of Jewish sovereignty from Israel. So it’s not what you want for yourself, it’s what you want them not to have. So as long as that is the situation, and it’s been the situation for 100 years before the establishment of the State of Israel. No, I’m afraid not. I like to say I’m hopeful, but not naive. Not anytime soon.

Sruli Fruchter: Where do you identify on Israel’s political and religious spectrum? And do you have any friends on the quote, unquote, other side, on the religious arena?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I’m Dati Leumi, a Religious Zionist. It’s a philosophical and religious stand, not a political party. It’s also a name of political party. And politically, I guess I’m right of center. And do I have friends? Of course I have friends. Amazing, unbelievable people. Close friends. Yeah. And probably the most painful thing in our different arguments in Israeli society is the loss of trust. And when you sit with your friends, you realize that that’s what you still… At least I…

Okay, that’s what we still have together. Because I do trust them, and I trust that they’re doing things for the right reasons and they want the best for the State of Israel. And this is a true argument, a true discussion, and not the discussion with constantly ulterior motives and identity issues. And so, yes, thank God I have friends, though I must say, most people, you know, are within my circles.

Sruli Fruchter: But to close us off, do you have more hope or fear for Israel and the Jewish people?

Rachelle Fraenkel: I have tremendous hope, and sometimes I feel that I’m too stupid to be as anxious as we should be. But there’s something very healthy about that level of stupidity that where you let yourself keep your confidence. And the truth is that in Jewish language, being hopeful, it’s not a big deal, because we’re a nation that counts itself on the scale of eternity. So if you look into eternity, there’s always hope. What will happen for the next decade?

Sruli Fruchter: Okay, well, thank you so much for your time with our 18 questions.

Rachelle Fraenkel: Thank you.

Sruli Fruchter: How was this for you?

Rachelle Fraenkel: Oh, thank God. It was okay. Less intimidating than I thought.

Sruli Fruchter: Was there anything we didn’t ask that you think we should have?

Rachelle Fraenkel: Yeah, basically. Why should you care what I think?

Sruli Fruchter: That’ll be our 19th question.

Rachelle Fraenkel: Thank you.

Sruli Fruchter: This interview was fascinating and deeply resonant for so many obvious reasons. But I continue to be so inspired and in awe of the passion and devotion Rabbanit Fraenkel has to Zionism, to Judaism, to Medinat Yisrael, to Am Yisrael, and how her life is truly a manifestation of the values that she holds dearly. This interview was an absolute pleasure, and we have 30 more to go just like it. So, as always, shoot us an email with questions or guests. And before we end, thank you again to our friends Gilad Bronstein for editing these episodes and our friend Josh Weinberg for recording them on video, where you can find them all on our YouTube channel for your intellectual enjoyment. So until next time, keep questioning and keep thinking.