Yehoshua Pfeffer: ‘The army is not ready for real Haredi participation’

Transcripts are lightly edited. Please excuse any imperfections.

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
We, the Haredim, want to be involved in the state as much as possible, in order to try to bring in to pervade, to penetrate the state with as much religious content as possible, provided of course that it doesn’t create alienation, that it doesn’t cause hatred, which sometimes unfortunately some religious intervention has caused.

Shalom, I’m Yehoshua Pfeffer, community rabbi and social thinker/activist. This is 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers, from 18Forty.

Sruli Fruchter:
From 18Forty, this is 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers, and I’m your host, Sruli Fruchter. 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers, is a new podcast that interviews Israel’s leading voices, to explore those critical questions people are having today on Zionism, the Israel-Hamas War, democracy, morality, Judaism, peace, Israel’s future, and so much more. Every week we introduce you to fresh perspectives and challenging ideas about Israel from across the political spectrum that you won’t find anywhere else. So if you’re the kind of person who wants to learn, understand, and dive deeper into Israel, then join us on our journey as we pose 18 pressing questions to the 40 Israeli journalists, scholars and religious thinkers you need to hear from today.

One of the biggest issues facing Israeli society right now, and there are many and there are a lot to consider, but this one is the Haredi draft, specifically Israel’s Supreme Court’s recent ruling that the government must draft all eligible Haredi citizens, who in the past were exempted from IDF service because of their Torah study, assuming they were enrolled in a yeshiva. One of the super interesting elements about this issue is how it demonstrates the way religious and political divides cut in Israel and sometimes overlap in complex ways.

So as an example, whereas with issues like judicial overhaul or reform, which was going on about a year ago, Religious Zionists and Haredi Jews in Israel, who usually fall on the more right-wing camp politically, aligned in support for the most part, of judicial reform. On an issue like this of Haredim drafting into the army, many Religious Zionists, dare I say, the overwhelming majority, are supportive of the Haredi draft, aligning themselves essentially with the many in Israeli society in the more liberal camp who are also supportive of the draft.

To give some more context about the Haredi draft, but I very much encourage every person who’s listening to do some of their own research, read some articles, you can find some great summaries that highlight the complexities and the nuances. I’ll just briefly read from the Times of Israel article by Emanuel Fabian from July 21st. He writes, “The dispute over the ultra-Orthodox community (Haredim) serving in the military is one of the most contentious in Israel, with decades of governmental and judicial attempts to settle the issue never achieving a stable resolution. The Haredi religious and political leadership fiercely resists any effort to draft young men. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that military service is incompatible with their way of life, and fear that those who enlist will be secularized. Israelis who do serve, however, say the decades-long arrangement of mass exemptions unfairly burdens them, a sentiment that has strengthened since the October 7 Hamas attack and the ensuing war, in which more than 680 soldiers have been killed and over 300,000 citizens called up to reserve duty. In light of the High Court’s position, the government, which includes the Shas and United Torah Judaism ultra-Orthodox parties, has sought to pass legislation that would slowly increase Haredi enlistment, but major gaps remain between the Haredi factions and many senior lawmakers from non-Haredi parties.”

This article is coming about because of the first wave, I believe, 1,000 letters sent out to eligible Haredi men telling them that they must draft. And so if you’re wondering why I’m giving all this context and why this is a subject that I’m opening up with, it’s because our guest today is Rabbi Yehoshua Pfeffer, a Haredi political thinker, activist, community rabbi, who is intimately involved in the Haredi world. Whether heading the Haredi Israel Division at the Tikvah Fund, or founding Tzarich Iyun, a Haredi Journal of thought and ideas that he operates alongside various educational programs. He’s also a community rabbi in Ramot, Jerusalem, and teaches on the law faculty of the Hebrew University. So if it’s not obvious already, his experience and involvement is varied a ton, in many sectors that people often don’t interact in. Yehoshua Pfeffer was on our list even before news broke of the Haredi draft, because in his own right as a political thinker, as a social activist, and as a rabbi, he is one of those Israeli thinkers who we want to platform as we discuss these issues.

So the Haredi draft and Haredi life is not the only thing that we discuss in our interview. As with all of them, there are a lot of things covered in a lot of things discussed, but I’m particularly excited about this interview is because one of the things that has been concerning me a lot is how in many different scenarios manifest in many different ways, Jews at times, oh my God, the Jews, I hope I’m not going to ruffle any feathers, can feel so comfortable simplifying and in many ways demonizing Jews who are so different than them, which cuts along both ends of the religious and political spectrum. But in this case, I think many within and without Israel have felt very comfortable generalizing and dismissing Haredi Jews as living in the past, as selfish. And I’m not here to talk about the specifics about what a Haredi draft should look like and the nuances of Haredi leadership and their perspectives. What I am hoping is that especially now during the three weeks as we’re approaching Tisha B’Av, we can confront this complexity.

And Yehoshua Pfeffer is the thoughtful, practical, idealistic and fervently committed Jew, Haredi Jew to Torah and his values, who is so perfect for this conversation. And aside from just that element of our conversation, also thinking about those larger questions on Israel that we’re exploring with every single thinker. His balance of conviction and is very hard to find nowadays. We spoke almost four weeks ago on July 2nd, and there have definitely been relevant and recent developments, but the core of our conversation is still timelessly relevant. And so before we jump into the interview, I’ll make my classic pitch to please subscribe, rate and share 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers, so that we can reach new listeners. And if you have guests that you want us to feature or questions you want us to ask, maybe I asked you in the reverse, I forget. Please shoot us an email at info@18forty.org and let us know your thoughts. What do you like? What would you like more of, and what would you like less of? Yehoshua Pfeffer is only our sixth thinker. We have 34 more to go. So stay tuned, but in the meantime, here is 18 questions with Yehoshua Pfeffer.
So I guess we’ll begin. As an Israeli and as a Jew, how are you feeling at this moment in Israeli history?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
I think this is an incredible moment in Israeli history. It’s a moment that brings back 1948, the inception of the State of Israel, which of course entirely changed the landscape of the Jewish world, what it means to be Jewish. And I think it’s a moment like that when I look around and I see the Israeli youth that we were skeptical, concerning whether they would show up for this war, the TikTok generation, and see their incredible self-sacrifice, their incredible building from within of something new in Israel. It fills me with optimism. Of course, I share the deep concerns that the Israeli society is surrounded by enemies and of course a lot of tension from within. But at the same time, I’m filled with optimism. I think it’s a real movement for the future of Israel and the Jewish people.

Sruli Fruchter:
What has been Israel’s greatest success and greatest mistake in the current war against Hamas?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Israel’s success has been on the social level, being able to unite the people in the war effort. The fact that so many joined the reserve units in fighting against Hamas, not just in Israel, but people who came from outside of Israel to join the campaign. This type of unity that you find within those units everywhere in the army and in much of civil society, civic society in Israel has been remarkable. And I think that’s been a big success.

Of course, things could have been done differently. I think that we had a grace period at the beginning that could and should have been taken advantage of to strike more severe blows both against the Hamas and potentially against enemies elsewhere, Hezbollah in the north, that was not taken advantage of. And of course, as time goes by, there’s a certain weariness that sets in, but I think that nevertheless, there’s a lot that can still be done that can be salvaged and that this can still go in great directions. As I mentioned, these failures do not dampen my optimism for the future.

Sruli Fruchter:
Has that been hard to maintain?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Has what been hard to maintain?

Sruli Fruchter:
That optimism?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Of course, there’ve been times when you look around and you say, wow, where’s this going? And certainly from the perspective that I most share, which is the Haredi perspective of what’s going on between the Haredim and the rest of Israel, there’s been ebbs and flows, ups and downs, and that’s a continual saga that we’re still far from reaching the end of. And in that sense, naturally, optimism is not a constant and perpetual state of mind. It’s a general underlying kind of sentiment, but of course there’ve been ups and downs, there’ve been terrible blows.

When you go to the levayas, that I’ve been to, more levayas over the last few months than the rest of my life put together. Then of course, on the one hand you cry, you appreciate the tragedy, you appreciate the hardship. You say, where’s this going? We’re losing some of our finest. But then you see the spirit, you see the continual commitment. You see that the way that the families speak, and it continues to be inspiring. So of course, we’re going through roller coasters, both emotionally and in terms of our vision for the future, how we see it playing out.

Sruli Fruchter:
What do you look for in deciding which Knesset party to vote for?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
So Knesset parties in Israel work in two ways. On the one hand, there’s an identity block. So myself as a Haredi individual, the Knesset parties that I would look to most naturally from the years I spent in yeshiva and as an integral part of Haredi society, would be those parties because there’s a kind of identity, residual identity sense of how you vote in Israel. But at the same time, that’s certainly not exclusive for me. You look for a party that’s going to, again, there are many policy issues of course that are important to bear in mind, but for me it’s not just about the policy issues, it’s also about maintaining or cultivating a unity. A party that’s going to be able to provide something that the greatest number of Israelis or Jewish Israelis will be able to unite around, and that thing that we need to unite around is not just an issue of which policies and what we’re going to be deciding in terms of economics, in terms of military, in terms of other issues that are central to Israel, but it’s also in terms of religion.

Religion I think is a very central part of Israel. It’s not something which is peripheral. Israelis are religious people. I realize that in surveys and polling, it doesn’t necessarily come out this way because we define religion in different ways in different countries, but I think that there’s a deep, deep religious sentiment among the great majority of Jewish Israelis. And I look for a party that’s going to be able to bring those elements together to unite the people around an agenda which is closely tied to bringing a religious vision into Israel’s public space that, like I said, is going to be able to unite people around it.

Sruli Fruchter:
Which is more important for Israel, Judaism or democracy?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Well, Israel is a Jewish state and it’s also democratic, but democracy is instrumental to Israel, while Judaism is essential to Israel. Without Judaism, we don’t have Israel because Israel is a Jewish state, it doesn’t exist without Judaism. While without democracy, it exists, and I think that today we are in a position where we can also critique democracy in many ways. We need good criticism of democracy. Look around the world, see where democracy has led. Certain Western allies of ours that are crumbling, whether it’s morally and ethically and in terms of values or in terms of their political structures, and I think that even though democracy might be the least bad of systems that we have today, but certainly it’s far less essential for Israel than the Jewish element and the Judaism of the State of Israel.

Sruli Fruchter:
Which countries are you thinking of, if you’re comfortable sharing?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
The United States comes to mind, but it’s certainly not the only one. Look at England, it’s amazing. In the local elections in Great Britain recently, there were many Labour MPs, members of parliament and other local representatives that were voted in on a pro-Palestinian ticket, on a Hamas ticket, which is just incredulous. And you’ll look at the United States, whether in terms of the social fabric of the United States, whether in terms of the tremendous polarization that tears apart families in the United States, and whether the political system which has really come to something of an impasse. Then this just for me indicates or brings to mind the weakness of the democratic system. Again, I’m not saying that democracy should be abolished, but I’m saying that we do need healthy and constructive criticism of democracy and to think about what democracy actually means. As we know, the democratic and “non-democratic” elements within every society, they’re all democratic in the formal sense, but the question is, what does democracy actually mean? And so I think there’s a lot to be unpacked over there, but for Israel, Judaism first.

Sruli Fruchter:
Should Israel be a religious state?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Israel is a religious state. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is both a nation, it’s a national identity, but it’s a national identity that is defined by traveling its national course with, in connection with, in relationship with God. That is Judaism. I don’t think that Judaism can be conceived of in any other way.

I realize that today there are people who refer to themselves as atheist Jews, and I’m not saying that halachically they’re not Jewish, but I’m saying that is for me, a contradiction in terms. A Jewish person is somebody with a religious identity alongside his national identity, they’re one. When Ruth converts, she says, ammeich ammi, your nation is my nation. Of course there’s a national identity belonging, we belong to a nation. And your God is my God, because without that, you don’t have the completeness of what being Jewish is, and if we have a Jewish state, then that’s by definition a religious state.

Now, how that religious state needs to operate, what kind of halachic system needs to be a part of the state mechanism, that of course is a very broad and complicated question. But whatever the answer is to that question, and I for the record, I’m absolutely against religious coercion. I don’t think people should be coerced by state apparatus to observe or to be religiously observant. Of course, that’s not the part of the state’s purview, but irrespective of that, the state is absolutely a religious state in its very Jewish essence.

Sruli Fruchter:
Can you say more about that?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
More about what?

Sruli Fruchter:
I’m curious more about the vision you have of the religious state and how you think about that and what that means to you.

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Well, it just means that the state of Israel as a Jewish state needs to have a Jewish insight, a Jewish perspective on the deep issues of statecraft that every state has to handle. So for example, religion and state. Okay, even though in America there’s a formal separation of religion and state, and it would be strange to have crosses on doors of government offices, in Israel, to have a mezuzah on the doors of government offices is natural and it’s right because we’re a religious state, so we have mezuzah.

It’s right that the army should have only kosher food because we’re a religious state, we’re a Jewish state. It’s right that marriage and divorce should be and is regulated by the rabbinate. How exactly that should be done in a way that doesn’t alienate too much of the population, that’s a good question and I’m involved in that from different directions, but because states deal with marriage for whatever reason, if you’re a libertarian, then maybe you’ll say states shouldn’t be involved in marriage and divorce at all. But the fact of the matter, the reality in the world is that states are involved in marriage and divorce. If Israel is involved in that, then it should be involved from a Jewish religious perspective and so on and so forth.

I think it’s a great privilege that Israel supports Torah study because Torah study is a deep part of Jewish religious life, and Israel supports Torah study, and I think that the Haredim, want to be involved in the state as much as possible in order to try to bring in, to pervade, to penetrate the state with as much religious content as possible, provided of course that it doesn’t create alienation, that it doesn’t cause hatred, which sometimes unfortunately, some religious intervention has caused. So that’s a delicate balance, but overall, absolutely, religious state.

Sruli Fruchter:
Do you think the state of Israel is part of the final redemption?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Final redemption has a final ring to it, and it’s difficult for me to weigh in on that particular word, final. But if we want to speak about redemptive processes, I have no doubt whatsoever that the fact that we have millions of Jews, close to 8 million Jews living in the state of Israel, which is within the territories of the Land of Israel, the biblical Land of Israel, is not by chance. This is something that HaKadosh Baruch Hu, that God has led, led the world in this process that the Jews have returned, in a completely miraculous way. No story, no modern story can parallel this idea of an ancient nation returning to its ancestral homeland. It’s so remarkable, it’s so incredible that of course there’s something here, there’s something special. Not to speak, of the fact that this does realize many biblical prophecies and you ignore that at your peril. Of course, this is not something that we should be ignoring. It’s something that we should be celebrating. It’s something that we should be looking up to and being inspired by.

Does that mean that the State of Israel is redemptive? Does it mean that it takes on a certain kedushah, a holiness? Is it a hallowed state? No, I don’t think the state apparatus, state mechanism itself is hallowed. I think that the state itself is a keli, it’s a vessel, a utensil, something which is instrumental to bringing about this tremendous historical process which is unfolding before our eyes, and that itself should not be missed. Totally important, I try to project this to my Haredi friends who not all of them appreciate it. I feel that we, let’s say Chutznikim, as we call them here in Hebrew, those who grew up outside of Israel, have a deeper appreciation of this, and I try to share this appreciation with many of my Israeli peers.

Sruli Fruchter:
Is messianism helpful or harmful to Israel?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Well, first of all, I deplore the way in which the accusation of messianism has these days become such a prominent and such a dominant force in the anti-religious or anti-right areas of the State of Israel, not just in Israel but around the world. Messianism is not a bad thing, Judaism is a messianistic religion. We look to the future, we look to bring or to try to catalyze, to try to be a part of a process that brings us to a better future, a future that has something ideal in it, a future that does transcend a lot of the evils that we’re familiar with today. So I don’t think messianism is a slur and I think it’s a shame and it’s appalling that it’s being used as such a slur. In fact, I think much of the Israeli left and the global left is also messianistic just in a secular way, but it has its own messianic vision, and therefore I don’t think that the word messianism in itself per se is something negative or something which should be condemned, chas v’shalom.

At the same time, I think that the way in which messianism is sometimes expressed, sometimes realized within Israel, can be damaging. Of course, we have to be aware of the realities of our situation, of our world. Of course, we have to admit, concede that whether or not we’re a part of a redemptive process, and I’m certain that this is a very meaningful process, but that doesn’t mean that the messiah is here and it doesn’t mean that we can abrogate the ways of nature/politics/geopolitics in order to achieve this immediate kind of deliver-ation, this immediate redemption. So it just depends very much on how you take it and which direction it’s being leveraged in.

Overall, I think we should have a perspective of great things that are taking place. I think that right now, as I said at the outset, when I look at the Israeli youth that are fighting in Gaza and elsewhere on behalf of the state of Israel, when I speak to them, people who have just come out of Gaza, when I hear how they talk, the passion, the fervor, the religious commitment of secular Israelis, people that you look at in the street and you think this guy has no connection whatsoever to Judaism as a religion, to Judaism as a system of connection and relationship with God, and then you hear them speak, the mind boggles. I’m taken away by some of these Israeli youth and that tells me that there’s something here which is redemptive.

Sruli Fruchter:
What do you think people misunderstand about the messianism that you were talking about when you opened your answer?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Well, I think people tend to conflate the idea of messianism with actions that negate with actions that I would say are fundamentalist, fundamentalist in the sense that they ignore the reality of the world and they look at society if you want, as this kind of blank piece of paper, this blank card that you can inscribe, you can write onto that blank card whatever you want coming from this messianic perspective. It’s like messianism now, right? We want Moshiach now, and I think the word now is not a bad expression, articulation of the problems on both sides of the fence. The idea of peace now, okay, Shalom Achshav, is another messianist idea, absolute messianism, and it ignores the realities of the world, of geopolitics, of society, of the nature of our enemies, and sees everything as a kind of blank piece of paper where we can write in bold letters, Peace Now, and that’s messianist in the left liberal way. Thank God, many have already managed to escape the lures of that particular vision.

But we do have the same issues sometimes with certain religious groups or religious affiliations that treat society in a similar way and say we can just write Messiah Now on this blank piece of paper. Those fringe movements should not be conflated, should not be confused with a general idea of a process, of a redemptive process that brings Judaism, the Jewish nation and the world ultimately to a better place.

What exactly does that final end product look like? We don’t know. It’s hazy by definition. There are many disputes, whether in Chazal, the writings of the sages, or of later commentaries concerning how the Yemot HaMashiach, messianic times will look like. So we don’t even know exactly what we’re heading towards, but certainly we know it’s a better reality than the one we have today. And I think today’s reality is also a better reality than one we had yesterday, certainly in terms of the situation of the Jewish people and God willing, the situation of the entire world. If we’ll be good enough, if we’ll do what we have to do, we should be a lighthouse for the rest of the world in bringing the world to a better place, and that’s messianic.

Sruli Fruchter:
Should Israel treat its Jewish and non-Jewish citizens the same?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Yes, we need to ensure that we are a part of the family of nations. A family of nations has a certain ethic and that ethic when it doesn’t run against the grain of our fundamental values, or to be respected. Even in times of the Melachim, the Book of Kings, the Kingdom of Judah or Israel was never absolutely independent. We had alliances, we worked together with other nations. We were a part of the family of nations, and that’s true today also. We’re not entirely independent, we don’t want to be. We’re a part of the family of nations and therefore we need to ensure that those ethical principles, those basic moral guidelines that guide the nations that we see as allies, we should be careful to observe them ourselves, and one of them is equality among citizens. We need to ensure that we treat our citizenship equally, and I think that’s the right thing to do.

That doesn’t mean that we need to cancel the Law of Return, right? The Law of Return is a law that’s absolutely legitimate in a national sense. Just because we treat all our citizens equally, it doesn’t mean that we have to give the keys to the entry to the State of Israel to all people around the world equally. Of course, it also doesn’t mean that Israel needs to fund, I don’t know, schools of Sharia just as it funds schools of Torah study. That equality among citizenry doesn’t mean that our policies should not be Jewish-oriented policies. We’re a Jewish state and of course we have a priority system in terms of policies, concerning the Jewish people, the Jewish nation and Jewish issues. But in terms of rights, in terms of everything related to equality before the law, no question that all citizens need to be treated equally.

Sruli Fruchter:
Should all Israelis serve in the Israeli army?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Well, let’s begin now with the reality in the field. Not all Israelis serve in the Israeli army. There’s no equality within the state of Israel concerning service in the army. And I’m not speaking now about equality of different positions within the army because I find that particular claim disingenuous. Of course, there’ll be some who are serving in combat duties, some will be in support positions, some will be in IT or cyber units and so on, but they’re all a part of the same IDF. They’re all parts of the army.

But even in terms of serving in the IDF, there’s no equality in Israel. Men and women are not equal. Tel Aviv and Modi’in are not equal. Tel Aviv, about 70% serve in the IDF, while in Modi’in, north of 90% serve in the IDF. There’s no equality between religious and secular. Religious many serve in the hesder program and then you serve more or less one and a half years as a part of your regular army service. While if you’re not in a hesder program, then you’ll serve close to three years in your regular army service. So, there’s no equality, and I don’t think there needs to be equality. I think equality is a utopian messianic, if you want, idea. It’s an idea which ignores the realities of the world. The realities of the world do not tend towards equality, and the idea of imposing equality on an unequal world is an idea that can only take to places of conflict and animosity. At the same time, I do think that all groups within Israel, there should not be any group within Israeli society which is exempt, a priori from service in the IDF.

I’m leaving aside now the Arab group for now because that has special sensitivity. You can go there if you want, but right now let’s speak about the Jewish groups. No Jewish group within Israel should be automatically exempt from army service. That would be something which is deeply immoral. It would be a moral stain and certainly even the Haredi group, which I’m assuming where this conversation might be going, even the Haredi group needs to be conscious of this very, I think, clear fact. Automatic exemption does not make sense. That does not mean you need equality, there should be exemptions, include exemptions for those who are in full-time Torah study, but that does not mean that any group can claim automatic exemption from service in the IDF.

Sruli Fruchter:
Can you elaborate more about that, as it relates to today, where July 2nd is our day of recording.

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Well, of course, July 2nd is a few days after a Supreme Court ruling that effectively said that every Haredi boy between the age of 18 and 26 has an immediate obligation to step up and be conscripted into the IDF. Of course, that’s a very unrealistic vision. It’s a vision of de jure, but certainly not a vision of de facto.

But nevertheless, I think that we are at a unique time, a unique inflection point concerning the question of Haredim and the IDF. It’s true that over many decades, the Haredim have built for themselves what you might call an enclave society, a kind of parallel track, a parallel line that traverses the history of the State of Israel, parallel to the line of the rest of Israel. And Haredi society has focused on its own affairs, whether that’s building the decimated communities of the Holocaust, Hasidic courts, Torah study, yeshiva institutions, religious services, all of the rest, and have generally withdrawn from participation in the greater project of the State of Israel, which is the branches of government, the institutions, the economy, the army, and so on. And today we’re reaching an inflection point where that kind of strong division of labor, which is also a division in terms of identity, that needs to be reconfigured to be rethought, and I think there’s a growing awareness that this Supreme Court decision is just one part of, there’s a growing awareness on the part of the Haredim themselves, that something is going to have to give in this very, very complex and also very crucial issue for the future of both the Haredim and for Israel.

In terms of army specifically, of course, there’s a great sensitivity for the Haredim concerning army service because it’s perceived as being the Ben-Gurion melting pot where we create this new identity of the Israeli Jew, which is not the identity that the Haredim want to perpetuate. The Haredim want to perpetuate to continue on the identity of the traditional Jew from Eastern Europe or from other parts around the world, how we existed before the State of Israel, and to kind of continue that into the state of Israel. That’s why we named all of our institutions Hrodna, Slabodka, Mir, the words, they’re all named after these European cities and yeshivas and so on, and the same for the Hasidim and so on, and therefore, it’s a different kind of mindset.

And nevertheless, there has to be an appreciation that the army today is not what it was in 1948. This melting pot project is not the same today as it was then. There has to be an appreciation that Israeli society is no longer as willing to concede these kind of concessions to the Haredim as it was in 1948, and it has to be realized that this is an opportunity. It’s an opportunity for us, the Haredim, that we’ve become this strong, self-confident, built up society replete with amazing institutions, with Torah students, with a strength of character. It’s an opportunity for us to be able to go into the rest of Israel in a way that doesn’t dilute our core values and allows us to make real contributions to the rest of Israel.

At the same time, I just do want to point out, there needs to be work from the other side of the fence too. The army is not ready, has not been readied over the years for real Haredi participation. You speak to generals, senior brass in the IDF before October 7th, they’ll all tell you that it’s much more important to integrate women into every unit of the IDF than to integrate the Haredim. And of course, there’s a real tension in those two integrationist projects and we need to resolve that tension.

I’ll tell you a quick anecdote on this that I heard just recently, that the army had a project to integrate Haredim into lookout positions, kind of watch, observation or lookout positions … and this was ultimately rejected, because the relevant commander who led this project said, I’m not going to accept the Haredim unless they go through the kind of educational ethos that soldiers have to go through, including a Rabin Day, Yitzhak Rabin Day, including visit to Yad Vashem, including a visit to Har Herzl. Guys, the army should not be a strong educational platform. We need the army to be fighting its wars and integrate Haredim into that, and not into an educational vision.

And I think there’s a lot of fear on both sides. Haredim means trembling, trembling before God, being anxious before God. There’s a lot of anxiety from both sides. The Haredim are anxious what’s going to happen if we enter into broader Israel, and Israel is anxious about what’s going to happen if Haredim enter into Israel. We need to reduce the levels of anxiety, to be in real conversation on collaboration over these issues, and to make real progress, which is so, so essential for the future of Israel.

Sruli Fruchter:
Which question do you think we’re up to?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Seven?

Sruli Fruchter:
I think we’re about halfway through, but I actually lost track.

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
I have no idea.

Sruli Fruchter:
I think we’re halfway through.

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Good.

Sruli Fruchter:
Now that Israel already exists, what’s the purpose of Zionism?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Great question. I think that Zionism today represents the idea that the Jewish people as a nation have a legitimate claim to a state. That’s the idea it’s always represented. That’s the idea that was key in forming the State of Israel as a legitimate representation on a state level of the Jewish nation. Till today, that idea is being challenged. Till today we have those who are enemies of the Jews, enemies of the Jewish People who say that the Jews do not deserve a state, that their statehood is illegitimate, that the area of land belongs to somebody else, and Zionism is essential up to this very moment in denying those claims, in calling out their falsehood, in reiterating the simple fact that we have a right to our ancestral homeland because that’s what the Torah says, that’s what the Tanakh says, and because in a family of nations, just like other nations have a right to a representation, political representation on a state level, so does the Jewish People, so does the Jewish nation.

Having said that, you don’t need to call this Zionism. If somebody has a problem with calling this Zionism, because Zionism could mean other things, it could mean that the crux of Judaism is a national identity over a over religious practice. It could mean that you can be a good Jew by giving a shekel to the WZO, the World Zionist Organization, and that itself makes you into a good Jew. It could mean that conversion should be given to anybody who serves in the IDF, irrespective of his level of observance or awareness of a connection to God. It could mean a lot of things and therefore, we don’t need to specifically use the word Zionism when we refer to this key idea of the legitimacy and the necessity of a Jewish state. But taken thus, understood in that way, Zionism remains exceedingly relevant. And as we see antisemitism around the world is now focused on anti-Zionism, there’s a reason for that, and I think it shows how relevant Zionism continues to be.

Sruli Fruchter:
Is opposing Zionism inherently antisemitic?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
I wouldn’t say it’s inherently antisemitic, because certainly we know some Haredi Jews who oppose Zionism and I would not call them antisemitic. But nevertheless, in the great majority of cases today where we find an opposition of Zionism, it’s simply antisemitism cloaked in anti-Zionism. It’s antisemitism, a hatred of Jews, a hatred of the success of Jews, a hatred of everything that Judaism represents, cloaked in the targeting of the Jewish state that represents the return of Jews to history, the return of Jews to prominence, the return of… Listen, the State of Israel is not some small historical quip or quibble.

The state of Israel provoked… This is from Rav Wolbe. Rav Shlomo Wolbe, zikhrono livrakha, has a book called… It was renamed, it was originally called, Ben sheshet le-Asor, Between the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, and it was then renamed, Olam Hayedidut, The World of Friendship. And over there he writes about Nostra Aetate, the declaration of Vatican, Vatican II in ’67, and he says, “Where did this declaration come from?” While he said Christian doctrine had to be reversed in the face of the return of Jews to history, the return of Jews to the political arena of global politics. It’s incredible and mind boggling, and of course, if you hate the Jews, then your first target today is the State of Israel, and therefore often in 99% of cases, antisemitism will be cloaked in anti-Zionism and they effectively mean the same thing.

Sruli Fruchter:
If you’re making the case for Israel, where would you begin?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
The case for Israel, in the sense of just the legitimacy of the State of Israel?

Sruli Fruchter:
However you want to understand it.

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Well naturally, making the case for Israel will depend a little bit on the target audience of the claim. But first of all, the claim for Israel has to begin from an appreciation that the Jewish People is a nation. There’s a nation of the Jewish people, and that nation represents something. It’s not just a collection of individuals that put together make up some kind of a religious belonging. Rather, it’s a nation, and the nation is a nation that has existed for the last three and some thousand years. It’s an incredible nation, a historic nation, and it’s a nation that just like any other nation, needs to have political representation. It has something to bring.

And I would back up that claim, number one, from the Bible. Of course, the Bible, the Tanakh, the Torah. Even Ben-Gurion went to the Bible when he spoke about the necessity and the legitimacy of the state of Israel. He said, “This is our kushan, our kushan,” meaning, this is our, as it were, title of deed, right? This is not a new idea that comes from religious messianists. Ben-Gurion himself used it, and of course, it’s absolutely true. The Bible, this is where the Torah begins, the first Rashi in the Torah, we begin with a claim for the Jews, for a state, and not for any old state, but for the Land of Israel.

But I would carry on with the historic importance, the historic importance of the Jewish People that have brought something to the world in every single generation. And the way to bring something to the world today in our age is through a political representation of the State of Israel. I do not think that we need to go to the Holocaust, to the antisemitism, to the horrors that the Jewish people have experienced throughout the ages, in order to justify the Jewish state. I’m not saying that that isn’t a justification, but it wouldn’t be my first one.

Sruli Fruchter:
Can questioning the actions of Israel’s governments and army, even in the context of this war, be considered a valid form of love and patriotism?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Yes. Questioning the actions of Israel’s government, of Israel’s army, of Israel’s policy, can be an expression of love. The question is how it’s done. Every question, every critique can be done out of love. The pasuk in Mishlei tells us that when criticism is made from a position of love, then it’s better than praise that is done from a distance, from a position of estrangement. So certainly, we want criticism, but criticism means that it comes with a loyalty, with a sense of belonging, with a sense of closeness, with a sense of love.

If I criticize somebody who I love, somebody that I have a relationship with, then that criticism will not undermine everything that the other person stands for. It won’t undermine the very infrastructures that Israel sits upon that are necessary for Israel’s continued thriving and prosperity, and therefore, it depends how the criticism is made. If the criticism is made internally in a way that can be constructive, in a way that’s out of love, then of course, but if the criticism is done at the ICC, if the criticism is done at international tribunals that threaten to undermine the very legitimacy of the State of Israel and to damage it internationally in a way that can be exceedingly harmful for everything that we need in order to continue to fight the war, to ensure unity among the people, to thrive into the next generation with all of the essential projects that Israel needs to harness and to ensure, then the criticism is illegitimate and it harbors a sense of hate and a sense of hostility towards Israel.

Sruli Fruchter:
What do you think is the most legitimate criticism leveled against Israel today?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
I would say Israel has a real problem in its system of governance. We’ve had multiple elections, five or so in the last five or six years. A state cannot be a stable and a productive state under such circumstances, under such conditions. And that instability leads to much of the conflict and the general conflictual atmosphere that’s prevalent within Israel. Because of course, when the Knesset doesn’t function, when there’s a vacuum in our basic governance, then someone else is going to step into that, and that somebody else in Israel’s case is a Supreme Court, which stepped in pretty aggressively, and that’s of course only made the general animosity between the different tribes of Israel, between different groups of Israel, far worse.

But that doesn’t begin from the Supreme Court. It begins with a system of governance that hasn’t been able to form broad coalitions, broad and stable coalitions, and I think that there’s something deep over there that requires real change, that there’s something that is not working well and is allowing openings for the more extremist positions to be voiced and also realized, whether within government or outside of it. And I think that we need to really rethink that basic structure within Israel in order to provide a solution, an infrastructure that will allow thriving and unity and stability within Israel.

Sruli Fruchter:
What do you think the world misunderstands about Israelis?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
I don’t think the world misunderstands Israelis. I think the world is being fed propaganda that generally delivers or feeds them with slurs, with antisemitic stereotypes, with falsehoods, in terms of what Israel has done and what Israelis are doing. I don’t think that there’s necessarily a misunderstanding because there’s a lot of people around the world who do understand Israelis, who do understand Israel, and appreciate the necessity, for example of the war, who appreciate the religious conditions within Israel. So, I don’t think there’s necessarily a misunderstanding.
I do think that you need to have a stronger understanding of Judaism in order to understand what’s going on in terms of religion and state in Israel, because if you’re coming from a Christian perspective and you understand religion in one way, then you’re going to be judging Israel by the standards of Christian culture, which are very different and different in kind to the kind of standards of Jewish culture and the kind of, if you want, social aspect that Jewish religious life will cultivate. And therefore, perhaps grounds for misunderstanding is judging Israel by standards that are not necessarily applicable to Israel in the same copy, paste kind of way.

Sruli Fruchter:
Do you think peace between Israelis and Palestinians will happen within your lifetime?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Yes, I think there’s certainly a possibility for peace between Israel and Palestinians. I draw a lot of hope from the Abraham Accords, and I think that they can be a model that might be emulated or could be expanded to include even the Palestinians. A lot depends on the outcome of the current conflict and where we go. Will we repeat the same mistakes over and over again, or will we leverage the outcome, God willing, of a successful campaign of Israel against our enemies in order to provide an infrastructure that can bring or can try to develop a lasting peace? So I don’t think it’s impossible. I certainly think it’s going to require, it’s going to demand a lot of investment and a lot of changes, and it’s up to us to ensure that those kinds of changes will be implemented.

Sruli Fruchter:
Can you say more about that?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Yes. I mean, it’s really all about education. Ultimately, the Palestinian people have been educated or brainwashed for a strong hatred of Israel and the Jews for multiple decades, and therefore, it’s no surprise that when you go into a civilian population within Gaza, within the Judea and Samaria, the West Bank, then you’ll have a strongly hostile population irrespective of whether this is for their benefit or not. You speak to Israeli Arabs, many will say that on the one hand we appreciate that being under Israeli rule is to our benefit in terms of rights, in terms of prosperity, in terms of standards of life. However, even within Israel, the education system does not always reflect the values of the Jewish state, does not always reflect a closeness or an affinity with the Jewish state, but exactly the contrary. In East Jerusalem not far from here, there are schools that spew hatred within their education system, and then what do you expect? Then you’re not going to have any potential, any capacity for peace.

What we need is something like post-World War II Japan, where the Americans were able to run Japan or oversee the rehabilitation of Japan for a few decades and ensure that the kind of radicalist, murderous ideologies that were prevalent previously in Japan were overturned and replaced by ideologies that on the one hand maintained Japanese culture, Japanese history, and so on, but with a completely different perspective. One that’s predicated on peace and cooperation and so on, and Japan has become a thriving country. It has its issues. I don’t think Japan is perfect, but it has become quite different to what it was before, and I don’t think that this is impossible for Arabs. We see that it’s happening in other places within the Arab world. So this vision that Arabs will never be at peace with the Jews, I don’t think that’s a vision that we need to espouse. I think it’s possible, but it just requires a lot of investment and infrastructure.

Sruli Fruchter:
Are political and religious divides a major problem in Israeli society?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
So I do not think so. Meaning of course, there have been a lot of tensions. The judicial reform period before October 7th and some of the demonstrations that have gone back to the streets in recent weeks. Of course, they reflect a divide in political opinion, in religious opinion and so on, and there is a divide in Israeli society. However, I do not think that this is a major problem. I think that 80%, let’s say, of Jewish Israel can agree on deep common denominators with one another.

I do not think that we need to espouse a tribal model, similar to the one that was laid out by Former President Reuven Rivlin, in which Israel is divided into its tribes, each one with a radically different vision of what Israel needs to be. Each one with a different education system and a different media system and everything is different. I do not think that that needs to be the vision for the future of Israel. I think that irrespective of your group belonging, we can all have a primary identity of belonging to the Jewish people that travels with a connection with God, and I think that a large majority of Jewish Israel will be able to sign in on that.

Of course, the devil’s in the details, and it’s not easy to sort out the details of what that looks like. However, I think that if each one of the different groups in Israel will be able to articulate what exactly it wants, what are the major issues that are crucial for it to be a part of this broader coalition within Israel, I think that there’s good grounds for a strong unity in Israel.

I do not think that Israel suffers from the polarization issue that we have in the United States and elsewhere, where Republican families won’t marry into Democrat families to the degree that that’s true, again, I haven’t done the research required to back up that specific statement, but I do not think that we suffer from the same polarization. I think that Israel has a very deep common denominator among Jewish Israel. I just think it’s up to us to ensure that that common denominator is strengthened, becomes prominent, and is unpacked among each group in a way that will ensure real collaboration, real conversation between the different groups and the ability to get together.

If you speak to people in the army coming back from the army, they’ll say that they’ve never experienced such unity before. Now you can say, of course in a foxhole, you’re together with everyone else because you have to protect each other from a common enemy. I do not think that it’s just about the common enemy. I think there’s a lot of common positive within the Jewish Israeli space. That positive elements of what’s common to all of us needs to be reinforced, needs to be strengthened, needs to be unpacked, needs to form the basis for future collaboration between all of these different groups of Israel. I do not think that we have an existential or a deep problem of different political positions.

Sruli Fruchter:
Where do you identify on Israel’s political and religious spectrum, and do you have any friends on the “other side”?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Absolutely. I identify as, I mean, I’m a Haredi Jew, I’m part of Israeli Haredi society. Politically, I identify as a part of the Israeli right. At the same time, I have many friends who are not Haredi and not on the Israeli right. Just a few weeks back, I ran a panel conversation in which I participated alongside a good friend of mine, somebody called Barak Medina. He would be placed on Israel’s extreme left, I think, extreme secular left, and we’re friends. We meet up for discussions, we talk. We have very different opinions about politics, about the direction that Israel needs to go in, but that doesn’t prevent us from being friends, and that’s true for many other friends that I have within Israeli society.

Sruli Fruchter:
To close us off, do you have more hope or fear for Israel and the Jewish people?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
So that’s a good place to close because it’s also where we opened. I’m certainly a person of hope. I think that sometimes hope versus fear, optimism versus pessimism, is something that can be categorized by character traits, by dispositions that we’re born with, but I don’t think it’s only that. I think hope is something deeply, deeply Jewish.

The Ramchal, Luzzatto, has an entire work, I would call it a treatise, it’s a short work that it’s a treatise on hope. And in it he predicates, he founds the entire corpus of what it means to be Jewish on the idea of hope. If you’re a Jew, you have hope because you have God in the picture. If you have God in the picture and your God is the source of all goodness in the world, then by definition you have hope, and that’s certainly how I see the world. I look at everything that’s going on around me and I see tremendous good. I see tremendous forces of goodness, of positivity, of connection with the source of all good, with God, and of people acting within Israeli and Jewish society to promote, to proliferate, to advance that goodness that we need to get to.

Now, of course, I’m not naive. I’m not unrealistic. I realize that we have enemies and threats externally and internally, but I think that we definitely have those powers, those forces, those resources of Jewish goodness that have been with us for three and some, 3,400 years or so. This is not the end of the Jewish people. If we’ve come as far as we’ve come, if we’ve returned to our ancestral homeland, if we’ve been able to establish a political entity that represents the Jewish people, and if we in a narrow sense now in the Haredim, secondary identity, primary identity, Jewish people, but if the Haredim have reached a position where we know that we are going to be a part of Israel, we know that we are going to take on these broader responsibilities for what Israel is going to become over the next decades, then I think we’re going towards a better place.

And certainly, I look to the future with hope and I fear some of the possibilities that might be facing us on this journey towards a better place. Every human graph is never linear, it doesn’t go straight up, it goes down and up the whole time, and we’re facing some tough and torrid times, but with the help of God, we’ll overcome them. We’ll be able to get past them, and we’ll be able to reach the continual track, the next station towards the destiny of the Jewish people and the world.

Sruli Fruchter:
Which was that work from the Ramchal that you were referencing?

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Ma’amar Hakivui it’s a treatise on hope. It’s published in one of those green volumes of the Ramchal, it’s also available online. I would strongly recommend this to anybody to read because it’s just a marvelous work. You think Judaism is predicated on so many things, right? On terror, on observance, on compliance. Here he says Judaism is predicated on hope, and he says there’s one true source of hope and that’s God, and without that source of hope, we wouldn’t actually do anything. He says: In the beginning, God created. What did he create with? He says, “Well, he created with hope because without hope you wouldn’t do anything, maybe things will go wrong.” If you’re doing something, if you’re initiating, if you’re starting a new podcast, 18Forty, then you’re doing that with a hope that this is going to be good, that this is going to bring something positive to the Jewish people, to the world, to wherever you’re trying to impact. Everything ultimately is predicated on hope, and he says … Our most core faith in Hashem is expressed in this hope, in this kivui, in hope, and that’s how we draw closeness to God. He says a lot there. I’m not going to try to encapsulate it in half a minute, but I recommend reading it.

Sruli Fruchter:
All right, well, thank you so much for answering our 18 questions.

Yehoshua Pfeffer:
Great pleasure to be with you. Thank you.

Sruli Fruchter:
That was a really interesting episode and conversation that I had with Yehoshua Pfeffer. I’m curious for you as our listeners, let us know, shoot us an email. Did it change your perspective? Was there anything he said that you didn’t agree with, that you did agree with, that you think he ignored or should have addressed? I’ll tell you personally, I was very interested, and I mentioned this a lot in the intro with the nuance and balance of his perspective and his opinion as it related to Haredi life in Israel, the concessions that he felt Haredim needed to be making and the concessions he felt, secular Israelis, or Religious Zionist Israelis, or the rest of Israeli society overall needed to be making as well.

I don’t only want to be talking about the Haredi issue because there were so many other things that we spoke about, but to me that definitely is what stood out most prominently from our conversation. But again, we want to hear from you, so if you have thoughts, shoot us an email at info@18forty.org. And as always, if you have questions you want us to ask or guests that you want us to feature, shoot us an email. And for all things Jewish, ideas, podcasts, essays, book recommendations, programs and more, visit us at 18forty.org. That’s 18forty.org. And if you’re interested in sponsoring an episode of 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers, you know the email, shoot us an email. So until next time, keep questioning and keep thinking.