Mosheh Lichtenstein: ‘Jewish values don’t celebrate might’

Transcripts are lightly edited—please excuse any imperfections.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Destruction devastation, therefore religiously negative values. Sometimes they’re inevitable. And because they’re inevitable, in self-defense it’s inevitable, it’s a tragic situation, has to be recognized as tragic situation. We have to be concerned and upset by that.

Moreover, I also feel that we should be concerned and upset about the human loss amongst Palestinians as well. Hello, Shalom Aleichem. My name is Mosheh Lichtenstein. I’m one of the Roshei Yeshiva of Yeshivat Har Etzion. And these are 18 questions for 40 Israeli thinkers from 18Forty.

Sruli Fruchter: From 18Forty, this is 18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers, and I’m your host, Sruli Fruchter.

18 Questions, 40 Israeli Thinkers is a podcast that interviews Israel’s leading voices to explore those critical questions people are having today on Zionism, the Israel-Hamas war, democracy, morality, Judaism, peace, Israel’s future, and so much more. Every week, we introduce you to fresh perspectives and challenging ideas about Israel from across the political spectrum that you won’t find anywhere else. So, if you’re the kind of person who wants to learn, understand, and dive deeper into Israel, then join us on our journey as we pose 18 pressing questions to the 40 Israeli journalists, scholars, and religious thinkers you need to hear from today. Anyone in the religious Zionist world, in the Dati Leumi world in Israel, or even beyond it, and I’m not just talking about the Orthodox or Modern Orthodox world in the diaspora, is familiar with Yeshivat Har Etzion in the Gush. Shortly after the Six-Day War, a movement was founded to resettle the region in Gush Etzion in the West Bank, Judea and Samaria.

Today, over 50 years later, in the city of Alon Shvut, sits Yeshivat Har Etzion. one of the leading institutions of Torah study, Talmud Torah, and one of the leading Batei Midrash in the world. Today’s guest is the son of one of Yeshivat Har Etzion’s founders or co-founders, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein. And today’s guest is one of the current co-Roshei Yeshiva, or heads of the Yeshiva, Rav Mosheh Lichtenstein.

Rav Mosheh Lichtenstein came with his father to Israel in 1971, learned at Hesder at Yeshivat Har Etzion, or more commonly known as Gush, received Smicha from the Israeli Rabbanut, and studied English literature from Hebrew University. He has been teaching at Yeshivat Har Etzion since 1992 and is now a co-head of the yeshiva. His Torah lectures, books, and writings are studied and read and listened to across the world. And one of the reasons why I felt he was such an important guest for us to bring on is I think a representation of the different segments of Israeli society, but I think also because of the interesting and unique qualities of Yeshivat Har Etzion and its leaders.

His religious, spiritual, and moral concerns about Israel, and his openness and willingness to speak loudly about it, is one of his defining qualities. And you can search him online to read many of his opinions about President Donald Trump during his first term in office, about judicial reform, about violence from Israelis in the West Bank, and even about the Israel-Hamas war. It was a really insightful conversation, and I deeply valued, I think, both A, his candor throughout the entirety of the interview. And also, and this is probably one of the most difficult things, especially for a thinker like himself, his ability to shorten his answers and sacrifice, so to speak, all the benefits of a more expansive explanation in exchange for answering all of our questions.

So, before we head into the interview, if you have guests that you want us to interview or questions you want us to ask, please shoot us an email info@18Forty.org. And you can find all things 1840 by signing up for our newsletter at 18Forty.org/join. Linked below in the description. Rav Mosheh is our 31st Israeli thinker, and that means that we have nine more slots left.

So please be in touch with your recommendations. And if you can also please rate, subscribe, and share this podcast with friends, it’ll mean a great deal to us and help us reach new listeners. So, without further ado, here is 18 Questions with Rav Mosheh Lichtenstein.

So, we’ll begin where we always do. As an Israeli and as a Jew, how are you feeling at this moment in Israeli history?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Extremely concerned, deeply worried.

On a certain level, I’m also with a lot of sorrow and pain. There’s been a lot of loss and tragedy that we’ve experienced in the past year and a half. Some of it close to home, close to home I mean in terms of students, neighbors, people, friends who experience loss. That’s on one level.

Another level, deeply concerned about the direction of Israeli society, Jewish history, direction of Religious Zionism, its values. Deeply concerned, deeply worried. I try not to articulate it too much to the outside, but, you know, I toss on my bed at nights, al mishkavi baleilot, I’m deeply concerned.

Sruli Fruchter: Can you say more about that concern?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: There’s a moralconcern.

I think the ethos of might and power and unwillingness to face the limitations of force is is constantly, it’s been rising in the Israeli government, parts of the Israeli public, and certainly amongst Religious Zionists. Just give an example. Last week there’s a new chief of staff in the Ramatkal was appointed. So he quoted the pasuk, al charbecha tichyeh, you live on your sword, which of course in the Torah is was mentioned to Eisav, not Yaakov.

Jews always believe hakol kol Yaakov, veyadayim yedei Eisav. Eisav uses military might, and Yaakov, Am Yisrael, the Jewish people use spirit. I’ll say like this, I spoke to someone who’s relatively high up in the decision-making circles of the government. I said to him that Chazal tell us, the Rabbis tell us when Yaakov Avinu confronted Eisav, he used three techniques: doron, tefillah, and milchama.

Gift, prayer, and military readiness. Which translates really into diplomacy, which is doron, tefillah to beseech Hakadosh Baruch Hu to help us, and milchama, of course, to be to be ready to to go to battle. My feeling is in the current government, there are those who believe in milchama alone, meaning they’re willing to go to to go to war, secular right if you want. There are those who believe in tefillah, but not the other two components, the Charedim.

There are those who believe in tefillah and milchama, religious Zionism, but I think the whole role diplomacy is lost, totally lacking. And there’s an unwillingness to recognize that now this is this is not only a diplomatic issue. I believe it’s also true militarily and strategically. And I’m deeply concerned strategically that we have no plan and we’re just trying to, you know, to use this more force and more force and and might to overcome our problems.

On a much deeper level, it concerns me religiously and ethically. I just think that you can’t solve all problems with force. It bothers me that I think expressed in the following ways. I believe that destruction, devastation is antithetical to God’s plan for creation in a sense.

The world was created l’ovdah u’l’shomrah, to develop it, to to be creative, to preserve and develop, l’ovdah u’l’shomrah. And the prophet tells us, lo tohu v’raah l’shevet y’tzarah, the world was was created not for naught, but to be developed and and to be civilized. Destruction, devastation are therefore religiously negative values. Sometimes they’re inevitable.

And because they’re inevitable, in self-defense it’s inevitable but it’s a tragic situation. It has to be recognized as this tragic situation. We have to be concerned and upset by that. Moreover, I also feel that we should be concerned and upset about the human loss amongst Palestinians as well.

Part of it, I think, is inevitable when you go to war, and wars are waged between nations. Because they’re waged between nations, so it’s difficult to, it’s really in a sense, it’s collective fighting a collective, and this theoretical distinction between a civilian and a soldier is very difficult in practice to implement, especially when they’re embedded amongst civilian population, which to a large degree is supporting them. So a good deal of this may so I feel it’s probably true that a fair amount of the destruction may have been inevitable. It’s also inevitable that mistakes will occur during wars.

Nevertheless, I think the following two observations have to be made, and I’ve been repeating this during the yeshiva often the past year and a half. First of all, even if it’s inevitable, you have to be upset. That has to cause distress. The Medrash says that when Yaakov took from Eisav the blessings and he basically pushed him aside and caused him distress, that there was a price to be paid for that.

It was the right thing to do. Yaakov clearly was supposed to be the successor to Yitzhak and not Eisav whose values were totally different than those of Yitzhak and of Avraham. Nevertheless, the Medrash says because it says vayizak Eisav zeakah gedolah, because Eisav screamed in pain, because he was, pain was inflicted upon him, Am Yisrael had to pay the bill down the road, and you have to recognize and be sensitive, and there are a few other Midrashim. I don’t want to quote all all of them at the moment, but the famous Medrash claims that Avraham was quite concerned about the destruction that he wrecked during the war that he went to to rescue Lot, which is a justified war, but Avraham was still concerned about the fact that he had to kill and inflict pain upon upon Lot’s enemies.

So that I think is, you have to feel the stress even if it’s justified. Secondly, you have to constantly ask yourself, is everything justified? Now I said before, I think it’s inevitable that some mistakes will be made. However, I do have my concerns that not everything was done that was always done was absolutely necessary, even factoring in the fog of war and factoring in the fact that mistakes are are made. Or to put it differently, I I do believe that in the past war, there were many problematic events.

I don’t want to discuss and get into the details, but and I do believe it’s hard to disconnect this from the fact that the government is espousing ideology of power. When you have a party of religious people which promotes religious values, which calls itself Otzma Yehudit, Jewish might, I believe it’s foreign and antithetical to Jewish values. Jewish values don’t celebrate might. Jews celebrate spirit.

It’s maybe inevitable to have to use power, but that certainly is not what you should, that’s not your calling card. Your calling card should be spirit, should be Ruach Yehudit, not Otzma Yehudit. I spoke about this during the past, I find it extremely distressing that we adopted an ideology that we adopted ideology. I do believe, yes, problems going in Gaza is function of the fact that the government has an ideology of using power.

Or put it differently. I I believe we should give humanitarian assistance because it’s morally the right thing, even setting aside the diplomatic ramifications. I just believe morally, we shouldn’t starve people and we should we should we should be concerned. The Rambam claims, it’s in dispute, others disagree with him.

The Rambam claims you can’t destroy trees even if you need to do so for defensive purposes. And obviously people are more so than trees. That’s on one level that I feel deeply concerned. So now make maybe the same point from a different perspective.

I believe all kinds of things were being done, West Bank, all kinds of vigilante justice.

Sruli Fruchter: Yeah, some of those things, some of those things I’ll I have some questions about those as we go further on.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Okay, so. Yeah, so

Sruli Fruchter: But on the on the topic of the war actually, I’m curious, what do you think has been Israel’s greatest success and greatest mistake in the war against Hamas?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: You asking mespiritually or strategically?

Sruli Fruchter: I’ll let you decidehow you’d like to answer.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I’d probably liketo answer both.

I I just believe that as a matter of methodology, I believe that as a private citizen, I have many opinions. I don’t think that I have any unique claim to ear my private opinions. If you’re asking me, you came here because I’m Rosh Yeshiva. So presumably I should, you know, the main that I have a stance more spiritually.

I told you, I believe that the biggest success, I think, is we’ve been able to fight back. I’ll say like this. The biggest success spiritually is the willingness for self-sacrifice, is the willingness for kiddush Hashem. It’s the the fact that people are willing to leave their families, they’re willing to go to war, they are willing to put themselves in the line of danger.

I believe that this mesirut nefesh, the willing to sacrifice your individual existence even, put your individual existence on the line and to sacrifice to willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of greater values and ideals, first and foremost religious for those who who fighting religious, but if not for Am Yisrael, or to put differently, to go to war to enact the covenant between God and his people. I think that’s the that’s the main privilege, the main merit or zechut that we’ve had the past 100 years. The mesirut nefesh, ever since the first Zionists came here has been astounding and amazing and inspiring. How how people are willing in the name of great ideals and values, put themselves in danger.

It’s extremely inspiring. There’ve been many, many inspiring stories about individuals in terms of commitment to the Kadosh Baruch Hu, their commitment to Am Yisrael, both what I mentioned before, but also in many small actions, how they live and how they how they actually you know, go go about their tasks when they’re at war. Same holds true, I think, for the families who are willing willingly allow the the fathers and husbands and sons to go to war. It’s I find it extremely inspiring.

Sruli Fruchter: And thegreatest mistake you would say?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Just a second. Now, the other thing I think … So I guess I think restoring our, restoring the deterrence. So I do believe that and I said before, part of me I’m quite bothered by the destruction and certain amount beyond a certain amount, I really believe it’s wrong. On the part of me though I have a split screen.

Part of me believes that the fact that we’ve really Gaza has been reduced to rubble will restore the deterrence will, in a sense will exact the price. And I said before, wars are done between collectives. And at the end of the day, this is not between an individual here, individual there, it’s between collective. The collective has a government, they support them.

So I think there are many also achievements of many sensitive individuals who have been able to do a lot of good. That I think is the greatest success. I think the greatest failure is as I said before, I think is the reliance upon power and and the belief that power can solve all problems. The unwillingness to think about the day after.

And what bothers me even more so is the unwillingness of the government to take any accountability. That is a major message of Tanakh. This is not just you know, like my political position. A major message of Tanakh is accountability.

Moshe Rabbenu doesn’t enter the land of Israel because he made some errors. There’s constant accountability in Tanakh. Uh, it’s a uh, it’s a theme which go which runs throughout. And certainly another theme is that a person has to take accountability.

I think the the unwillingness of the government to take any accountability, it’s unwillingness to examine itself. You know, Judaism believes in teshuvah. Teshuvah means first of all, you have to understand what what went wrong, both spiritually and also of course in this case practically, there’s I find the lack of leadership, the the unwillingness to take responsibility is is horrendous. As part of this, I think the government was was very remiss in its acknowledgement of the loss.

I don’t think there was any, you know, like memorial ceremony for those who were killed on Simchat Torah on October 7th. Eventually, Yom Hazikaron rolled around and there was some, and even that was was not exactly properly done. There was never a public ceremony, a government ceremony to acknowledge the loss, to memorialize. I do believe that even time of war it can be done and certainly we’re year and a half later, there certainly could have been a major and a major assembly or expression of aveilut.

Judaism believes aveilut is a religious uh religious value. You have to mourn. That to me is another major failure. You just to not even talking about now have established investigation, but just the willing to say to mourn, to express to express the loss.

Now, from a religious perspective, I think what happened in Simchat Torah is what you would call in to use theological terminology is Hester Panim. Meaning God concealed himself. He looked away from us. He hid.

He hid out of of anger or out of because he forsook us. Now, I didn’t we’re not get into nuances whether we call it Hester Panim, we call it divine punishment. It’s a major distinction, but for the purpose of this podcast, I don’t think it’s crucial. Either whether God decided to punish us severely or worse, he hid himself and just, you know, walked away for that for that one day or for that period, if requires a religious response.

Response of teshuvah, repentance. I think every community has to do that. Every community has to what to repent. The secular community, the religious community, the right wing, the left wing, the the Charedim, the religious Zionists.

And when I’m talking about repentance, I’m not talking about … uh that each one should point out the other segment’s shortcomings and the religious Zionists say what’s wrong with the Charedim, say what’s wrong with the secular, what’s wrong with religious Zionists. I’m talking about each community doing introspection. Teshuvah really means you introspect and you think what’s wrong with you, not you point fingers and blame at others.

It’s difficult. How to do public teshuvah is a very difficult concept. And I I’m not sure I’m not sure I have a road map exactly how to do it. But it seems clear to me that there should be a point or there should have been and maybe there still should be a point in which people get in groups get together and do they analyze themselves, they do self-introspection, they do teshuvah.

You you surface and you surface problems. I think that’s the proper religious response. I don’t see it’s really taking place. It’s really happened.

I’ll just add one one one other point. Another accomplishment or major achievement, I think of the war was it did uh it did ought to heal some of the rift in society from two years ago. I think it’s often overemphasized. I think unfortunately, the basic rifts were papered over and I still believe that society is at the moment torn apart that the basic division in society has not really been healed.

I think many people particularly on the right romanticize that the war solved our problems that people fought together and uh when you’re in a tank or in a or in Nagmash in APC, you really don’t you don’t care who’s on right, who’s on left, who’s dati, who’s chiloni. All that is true. And I think that certainly was a uh another positive outcome of the war. Unfortunately, I don’t see it spilling over into society into larger societies.

So another thing which I thought was positive was the was the ability to express aveilut within the communities. I said before, I think the government did not do that, but I do believe that the communities gave a lot of mutual support. There was community communities coming together uh, and supporting their members. That that I thought was uh positive and inspiring.

There was a lot of mutual support.

Sruli Fruchter: Before you were mentioning when we first started about, you know, at night tossing and turning and having concern over things that are happening in the state of Israel and its own direction. I’m curious and specifically with the war and everything since October 7th. I’m curious, um being the Rosh Yeshiva of a Hesder Yeshiva, which is pioneering Torah and military service. How do you square those things? Meaning, how do you relate to the idea of having issues with the military force that the IDF is using or how the war in Gaza is being conducted or was being conducted? And also at the same time leading a yeshiva that’s pioneering both the Torah and and military service?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I haveno problem with military service per se.

I have no problem with using force or might. I myself uh was in Lebanon and uh I spent months doing miluim in Philadelphi. I have no problem with the concept of using force. I just think it has to be, you have you have to be careful to do it properly and and not to overstep the boundaries.

Before and I think I’m proud of our of our talmidim who’ve gone to war, who I said before, put themselves in danger, went to rescue Am Yisrael, went to um, hakom l’hargecha hashkem l’horgo, whoever tries to kill you, I think it’s a moral and religious imperative to fight back. I’m extremely proud of our talmidim who went to Gaza and fought and they were there in all in all the battles. Before they go to the army at the end of the second year, we give them two two years of preparation. I speak to them every year, about the proper attitude to using force, about the proper attitude to force in general and how how to use it properly, how to relate to the other, how to see the human being on the other side.

We discuss all this uh, and broadly speaking, I have a lot of trust in them that that, you know, at least the messages we give them, that they absorb them and and they act accordingly. Baruch Hashem, I believe that most of our talmidim get the proper message and they get a nuanced and balanced message, which is dialectical. And they um, and they understand it and and they implement it. My problem is, I think that there are other places which are giving message, different messages.

Uh, I said before, if you have Otzma Yehudit, that’s a message I uh I’m opposed to. And that’s uh and I’m also opposed to people who don’t absorb and and act on their own. But when we do have uh, Baruch Hashem, I I think that I trust my talmidim.

Sruli Fruchter: How have yourreligious views changed since October 7th?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I don’t thinkmy views have changed so much. And that’s part of the problem I alluded to before.

It’s difficult to do teshuvah because you believe, you really believe that your views are were correct before. You don’t you don’t start at the age of 60 thinking about your views. You’ve been thinking them for many years. Basically views haven’t changed.

What’s changed is my concern about how Am Yisrael is living our values. Now like I’ll say like this. I’ve always believed in theory that it’s possible for there to be a galut. If Am Yisrael will sin, we say it’s Kriat Shema every day that if Am Yisrael veer off the path, if Am Yisrael will sin, God can also punish us.

We are not exempt from the classic cycle of Tanakh when there’s sin, one of the options of punishment is galut.

Sruli Fruchter: Exile from—

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Exile, yeah. It was always known abstract idea, which I which I believe in abstract ideas. I can never see road map how they would actually happen.

To connect the dots. Last year I could connect the dots to see how it was a plausible scenario. I’m not saying the only scenario, but it was it was a possible scenario. because you could see how the world would cut us off from all kinds of supplies, diplomatically we would lose our diplomatic support.

What happened in South Africa could uh could play out. Now, I’m I’m concerned also because I I said before, I think some of our values, especially the morality of force. The Torah tells us that if Yaakov will be too harsh upon Eisav, so God will allow Eisav to throw off his yoke, the yoke of Am Yisrael. And when I see vigilante justice, when I see innocent on the other side at times being, being harmed.

And there are unfortunately such such cases. And what’s and what’s also concerning is not only do such actions happen, but they’re not condemned. They’re either viewed forgivingly or or worse at times. This causes me to not not to change my values, but to be afraid that how God will apply uh, you know, how God will treat us.

And I see also in front of me that the values of society, I think are changing. It’s much more confrontational. There’s norms and standards … of public morality and public policy. I’ll say like this.

Sefer HaChinuch, the 14th century Spanish rabbi, quoting the Rambam, Maimonides, he makes the following claim, which seems to be pretty convincing. A bad government is worse than no government. Because they anarchy. And that’s what bothers me here also. Even if you disagree with many of the policies of either the right or the left, a bad judiciary or a bad government is still better than no government and no judicial system and I think the two sides are tearing apart each other in a way that is very concerning.

Sruli Fruchter: I want to shift gears a little bit.

Talking more generally about your role in Israeli society, what do you look for in deciding which Knesset party to vote for? You don’t have to say who you vote for unless you want to. But what are the things that you’re looking to consider?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: It’s complicated. In theory, you would want to vote for those who support your moral and spiritual values. The problem is that you have more than one moral and spiritual value, and each party, I think, covers part of it.

There’s a famous statement by, attributed to Ernst Simon who said, those I daven with, I can’t talk to, and those I talk to, I can’t daven with. Or putting it differently, I don’t have one group that I share common values with all the values. Some of them I agree with certain parties about religious values or if you’re more the more pure and with other parties about other religious values. That that’s the predicament.

You always you don’t agree with any one party and it’s not even 80/20. So sometimes it’s a balance what which which which values you believe society needs most at the moment. Because it’s not it’s not a question of do I prioritize value A over value B, it’s also a question of where I feel at the moment the greater need is for society to that has to address itself. So that’s why I don’t I don’t always vote for the same party.

You have to evaluate and also something else. In a country which is constantly facing danger, the luxury of voting just upon domestic issues is not always there. Because and in the I saw like this, in the past when the the gap the gap between different parties was much greater in terms of trusting diplomacy or not, the peace and war issues often have to be prioritized because that’s the ABC, you have to be healthy before you can talk about values. I think the gap has been has lessened has been narrowed much much greater now.

Unfortunately. But but sometimes you have no choice but in 1981 I voted for a religious party and I always had these these regrets. I think maybe we wouldn’t have gone into the Lebanon War of 1982 had there been a different other parties in power at the time. So I think you always have to somehow recalibrate and I don’t know you vote for next time.

Sruli Fruchter: Which is more important for Israel? Judaism or democracy?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I prefe rnot to phrase that dichotomy.

I believe the two can go together and you can find a way to reconcile them. I don’t want to give now you don’t have the time I don’t have the time to give a long a long lecture about Jewish political theory. In the current circumstance I think we have to somehow create a synthesis in which and not to present us as a dichotomy.

Sruli Fruchter: Well, to get more practical, do you think Israel should treat its Jewish and non-Jewish citizens the same?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Regarding what?

Sruli Fruchter: Regarding all walks of life within Israel.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Everything has to do with civilian life. Yeah, absolutely. Things which have to do with national destiny, it’s a Jewish state. And the destiny of the state has to be a Jewish state, has to reflect Jewish values.

In that regard, I feel yes, this is a state of Am Yisrael and it should reflect our Jewish values in terms of day day of rest for instance or many other values. On the other hand, what has to do with civilian rights, of course everyone should should have all of them.

Sruli Fruchter: Well, one of the things that I find interesting from our conversation so far is that many have identified the call for teshuva that you were mentioning post October 7th. And they’ve taken it in a different direction, one that I presume you’re probably vehemently against. In Israel and I believe and also in the States it’s becoming more popular with a belief or support for Meir Kahane and Kahanism as the proper response, ultimately the proper response, the right perspective of how to keep Israel safe, how to ensure that Jewish destiny, that the lesson of October 7th was that Israel hasn’t been forceful enough, that Israel’s been too forgiving, and that October 7th is the the proof or the message so to speak that force is needed and that that’s the response that’s there.

How do you respond to that? How do you feel about that type of perspective? And have you seen it being as prevalent as I may seem to get out to be?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: First of all I think it’s a perversion of Judaism. I think Judaism I said before. It’s Hakol kol Yaakov, v’hayadayim yedei Esav. Esav works by force, Yaakov works through spirit.

I said also before, you have to you I’m for military strength and the like. Kahane championed force and power as a value. I don’t. I see it’s a means.

And I think the lesson is I saw like this I heard from my uncle Haym Soloveitchik often a wonderful quote from Samuel Butler who was a 19th century English poet. Only the extremes are logical but they’re absurd. Let me explain that in my the way I the way I understand that. If you want to be logically consistent, you will have to go to an extreme that life does not permit.

Life is dialectical. There are many different values. If you go either to the extreme left, now this doesn’t matter we talking about economic issues, political issues, halachic issues, theological issues. It’s true about all of them.

Life is dialectical. So let’s talk about about this example. If you go to extreme left, you believe that everyone is peace and there’s no need for you, you can disarm and the like, which of course will clash with reality after five minutes if not less. Or take it to Kahane’s extreme, maybe logical, but you reach such a moral perversion that it’s it’s also untenable.

Life doesn’t believe in that either. So you have to combine. What is my response? My response is we have to maintain the desire for peace and harmony as a value. At the moment, unfortunately, there’s no one to talk to.

I went to a few meetings over the years Israeli-Palestinian dialogues. Unfortunately, indeed there’s no one to talk to. People come to these meetings are the moderates of the moderates. Even with them there was no real common ground and there was unwillingness on their part to make hard decisions and to take However, so my conclusion is that we should maintain these values and the idea should not be to obliterate Gaza.

The idea is we should defend ourselves. Now sometimes you defend yourself on your borders, sometimes you defend yourself you have to attack unfortunately. But the message of October 7th is it was a huge meḥdal, meaning the army was caught with his pants down and the main lesson is the army has to put its act together, the government has to put its act together in terms of defense and security. But the idea is not to try ḥas v’shalom to try to devastate and destroy totally a place of two million people are living and I don’t think that’s that’s a morally tenable or strategically tenable option.

What we have to do is make sure that we have put in place the proper safeguards to protect ourselves. Some of those safeguards include attacking, include going to war at times. But it has to be combined with maintaining our moral values.

Sruli Fruchter: You mentioned before that you couldn’t find common ground in those dialogues. I’m curious what you what you were referring to.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I believe that for us to have an agreement or to make some kind of step some kind of agreement with the Palestinians each side will have to compromise practically. I told them often there’s a Mishnah in Masechet Bava Metzia. The Talmud tells us if two people hold cling to a garment, shnayim ochazin b’tallit. Two people grab the same garment.

You have two options. They can slug it out or what the Talmud calls kol d’alim gavar and whoever will be stronger will break the other guy’s teeth and grab the garment. Or you can compromise. You split it in half.

It is patently obvious when you split a garment in half, it is wrong in legally it’s the wrong it’s the wrong decision so to speak. Because one of the two is the rightful owner. One of the two arrived first and made claim, he’s the rightful owner. However, since we can’t figure out who this you compromise.

In order to avoid conflict and a fist fight, so you decide to compromise to provide some kind of harmony. Or to put it differently, you prioritize shalom over emet. Peace and harmony over truth. The Gemara says in Masechet Sanhedrin im yesh shalom ein emet, im yesh emet ein shalom.

If there’s peace, there’s no truth. If there’s truth, there’s no peace. And so I would I told the Palestinians, each of us can hold on to his religious theological narrative. But practically, pragmatically, we have to agree to compromise and I will with great pain and sorrow be willing to let go of part of my claim.

And you also have to do that in order because I believe that greater values that we will accomplish by arriving at some kind of compromise. But they’re unwilling to do that. I was once in a meeting here down the road here in Beit Lechem. I gave this whole spiel about the need to compromise.

And I said at the outset, I’m not going to convince you of my narrative. If you are religious people, if you are believing Muslims, I’m not going in 15 minutes of my presentation I’m not going to convince you of my narrative. And believe trust me you’re not going to convince me of your narrative either. I’m I have a narrative of thousands of years, I’m not going to be convinced in 10 minutes.

So therefore let’s talk not about trying to persuade each other about the narrative. Let’s try to talk how we can learn to live together with conflicting, competing narratives. And then I gave this whole metaphor I mentioned. As soon as the other speaker got up, he was an imam someplace, he tried to convince me about the truth of Islam.

And after after all this it was like as if everything I said went by his ear. After all this, the questions from the crowd. The first question was from one of the Arabs in the in the crowd. And his question was, do you believe in Muhammad’s prophecy? So I said sorry, Orthodox rabbis do not believe in Muhammad’s prophecy It was like impossible for them to and impossible to compromise or on anything and they were all also looking over their backs.

I felt both a certain lack of courage and also the unwillingness to compromise on anything. Each session regressed. It was today there was no one to talk to.

Sruli Fruchter: So on that note of no one to talk to and on the note of being in a little bit of a standstill in terms of where to move forward. How did you react to President Trump’s plan to move all the Palestinians out of Gaza in order to rebuild it and potentially allow them to return? Did you see that as an meaning in some ways it has a it has a military accent to it, but in other ways it, many have said it it would actually avoid military conflict.

Do you see that the same way?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I say the following. I said an interview to a newspaper about six seven years ago, Trump is like Aḥashverosh. And all kinds of crazy things happen when you have Aḥashverosh and let’s put this aside. I’m extremely concerned.

I think he’s destroying the morals of the United States. I think he’s tearing up he’s tearing apart the structure of society in the United States. That concerns me much more for Israel’s security. He’s weakening American democracy, American institutions, American institutional culture.

The fact that he’s an autocrat and trying to be a dictator, that he’s trying to basically to revenge himself against his opponents. I think that is morally horrific, it is dangerous to the United States, which I remain a citizen. I also think it’s very dangerous for Israel. I think the embrace of the Israeli right of Trump is nearsighted and doesn’t understand that even though he may be doing some good things in terms of allowing Israel some freedom of action, I think what he’s doing is eroding dangerously the foundations also of Israeli society because I think a fair amount of the culture here that that I complained about before, about the political culture here, it’s been imported from the United States.

I think Netanyahu saw what Trump was getting away with in America. He’s more sophisticated, he’s smarter, but he’s less crude, but at the end of the day he’s been basically taking pages out of Trump’s playbook. And I think it’s eroding the Israeli political culture and morality. To me that’s far more dangerous because that really strikes at the foundations of society.

His plan for Gaza, I don’t think it’s realistic. Like when was the last time that Trump sat with a few Muslims and had a heart-to-heart conversation and heard what they really think and like many other things he’s doing, he’s oblivious to the fact that you can’t go from top down. The fact that he will make extravagant claims, he cannot twist and bend history to his will that way and I’m a thousand times more concerned about his position on Russia and Ukraine than I am about his position on Aza. I think it’s scary what he’s doing about Russia and Ukraine.

And the fact the Israeli government is what should I say prostrating itself in front of Trump and supporting the Russians is morally abhorrent.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think how he’s handled the hostage negotiations has been positive or negative?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Who?

Sruli Fruchter: Trump.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I don’t know enough I just don’t know I can’t comment on that.

Sruli Fruchter:Going back to Israel more generally and kind of the the direction of Israel. Now that Israel already exists, what is the purpose of Zionism?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: The purpose of Zionism,first of all I’m a believer in Religious Zionism.

And the purpose of religious Zionism is to achieve the two covenants that God has with us, Brit Avot and Brit Sinai. Or the covenant of the Jewish people living in the Land of Israel. Jewish sovereignty, Jewish existence, Jewish nationhood is enhanced by having a country of our own, not being exiled but having a country of our own enhances Jewish existence. Now that we live here, we have to realize our values.

These are both moral and ethical values, historical destiny and religious values. There’s a whole world that we want to we want to continue to accomplish. I think Israel has achieved the first stage which was to establish itself securely. That was more or less accomplished in 1967.

Baruch Hashem. The six day war gave us the first floor so to speak. Meaning that we that are the security of the country for for the foreseeable future was assured. Now you have to build upon that.

You have to build upon that world of values. There’s a lot of work yet ahead. Coming to the land is the starting point. You then want to create holiness, kedusha, an ethical, moral society.

That’s the point of Zionism.

Sruli Fruchter: Isopposing Zionism inherently antisemitic?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: In theory, no. In practice, it often the two go hand in hand, of course.

Sruli Fruchter: Should Israelbe a religious state?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: In theory, of course.

That’s you’re asking speaking to a religious person.

Sruli Fruchter: What wouldit look like in theory?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: When youask when you ask a religious person should it be a religious state, the answer is of course yes. In practice it’s a question of how and when. You have to take into account current circumstances.

The definition of halakha or religious values is there’s an ideal world, the world of ideas, capital I platonic ideas. How to apply them in reality, that’s always the challenge. Now sometimes the challenge on the level of the individual. Sometimes the challenge on the level of the nation.

There are various models of redemption. There are various ways to apply. So the end goal is bayom hahu yihyeh Hashem echad u’shmo echad. You know at the end of the time God will be the exclusive ruler, everyone will recognize him.

How to go about doing that, that’s really a different question. 

Sruli Fruchter: Meaning when you say in theory yes, what would the what would that look like theoretically in the ideal? 

Mosheh Lichtenstein: So I think the answer is that you can’t really answer that. There are many values but I’m talking about values, I mean how you apply them in how you apply them in practice. Which only when you apply them do you know exactly how you do them.

Take all kinds of halachic how do questions of technology and Shabbat or fertility and halakha work out. 100 years ago no one could predict this, but they they’ve been worked out. Know it’s Halakha has a way and a mechanism of solving its problems as it go as it goes along. Halakha adapts and solves all kinds of problems which were not anticipated.

Now the same is true how will you run a police force on Shabbat if everyone would be observant of Shabbat? I can’t tell at the moment but I can tell you that it’s doable. Halakha will find its find its solutions. Even now there are many proposals and they’ve been there’s whole halakhic literature, how do you run a police force on Shabbat? But at the moment part remains theoretical because the state of Israel is not a religious state yet. If it would be so, the same way you have secular or non-observant hospitals and observant hospitals and all of them function on Shabbat.

And the observant hospitals have found their ways to solve their problems. I’m confident that the same thing will happen in the future regarding how society will how will look I don’t know. Herzog put a huge amount of time and effort into this. In 1948, he wrote a fascinating document, but the document was never applied.

If you read Rav Herzog’s work, how to put a Jewish state into practice, what strikes you immediately are two things. How broad a canvas the man is painting on, how impressive the breadth of vision is. And be the naivete. The naivete that secular society would have accepted his his blueprint.

However, when society will not be secular, so I think his basic idea that you have to come and arrive at solutions and make and there are various halachic techniques to do this, it will be realized. But you always need the bulldozer, the pressure of reality to apply at the end of the day. So that’s why I can’t forecast you know. I’m a rabbi not a prophet.

Sruli Fruchter: If you were making the case for Israel, where would you begin? 

Mosheh Lichtenstein: The case to whom? 

Sruli Fruchter: Yeah, I was expecting that question.

I’ll I’ll let you decide however you’d like to qualify it.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: No, to Jews, to non-Jews ?

Sruli Fruchter: Jews and non-Jews. There are so many different ways to qualify it so I’ll give you the freedom to decide

Mosheh Lichtenstein: That’s punting. I think I would start depends who I’m addressing.

Certain people I would start with God told Avram Avinu that Abraham that he would get the land, he would inherit the land. We’ve come to the land of Israel. We are now doing our best to build a moral and ethical Jewish society, one which try to realize the vision of Abraham and the Kadosh Baruch Hu l’havdil The Torah tells us ki y’dativ l’maan asher y’tzaveh et banav v’et beito aḥarav v’shamru derech Hashem la’asot tzedaka u’mishpat. I’ve chosen him, y’dativ is a tricky word.

It means both I’ve chosen but also I’ve I am aware and recognize and also I’ve elected and chosen him because he’ll transmit values of tzedaka u’mishpat of justice and fairness to the generations. Has Israel been able to do all of this? No. But has it done a lot? Yes. Jews have come back to their land which belongs to them.

They’ve realized the self-definition. They’ve realized their Jewish statehood which is said is as a religious value to it and it’s been a remarkable accomplishment bringing together the various diasporas, kibbutz galuyot. Jews after 2,000 years all came home, scattered across the globe. It’s I think society is is not perfect and I pointed out many of my concerns before but nevertheless I think so many many wonderful things have happened here.

We are talking Gush Etzion now. Avram Avinu passed by one of the roads you drove on today on his way from Hevron to Yerushalayim for the Akeida when he went to sacrifice Isaac. He walked from Hevron to Jerusalem, he passed by one of these paths over here. David fought Goliath probably 10 kilometers from here.

He lived 10 kilometers to the north in Beit Lechem. You come back to our land and we’re doing our best to create a society which I think there’ve been huge amounts of accomplishments.

Sruli Fruchter: Should all Israelis serve in the army?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: In theory, yes. In practice it’s complicated.

Sruli Fruchter: How so? 

Mosheh Lichtenstein: But in theory yes.

First I believe that you want everyone to serve in the army, you also want to be able to further other goals as well. I said before life is dialectical. Now you have to figure out figure out a way how to balance this. What I mean other values, first and foremost Torah, but not only Torah.

If it was up to me, I would try to seek some kind of arrangement which secular Israelis would also be able to combine military service with some kind of engaging with the humanities, with Judaism. Know it’s either they should have they be able to also to combine some form of study.

Sruli Fruchter: Like a secular form of Hesder?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Yeah I would absolutely support that if they want study Shakespeare or Plato or Ahad Ha’am or Gordon or whatever for a year or two and combine it. I would I think everyone will benefit from that.

The people be more moral, more cultured, more educated, more committed. Now there are various models of accomplishing this dialectic. But I do believe that such a dialectic is necessary. If I assuming that your question lose most to the Haredi issue, they should certainly share the burden.

And from religious point is often incomprehensible how they don’t realize and what the price of society is paying and they need to be part of that. I do believe though that you probably more effective to do it in some kind of gradual way. But those are political solutions. People often ask the question I always tell people that from my point of view the important thing if you ask me in theory why I think in theory.

So I said of course they should. In practice though, I prefer to direct my energies to dealing with my community and its problems because I’m not going to have any impact upon the Haredim. For the simple reason the Haredim believe that I and them are coming from different starting points. We share a lot in common.

I certainly believe that. Belief in God and halakha we share a lot in common. Nevertheless, there are certain ideological issues which we do not share in common. Because of that, I really can’t convince any Haredi because he’s he will obviously assume that I’m coming from a particular ideological perspective which he doesn’t share.

The only people who can convince Haredim are Haredim. To transform Haredi society need Haredim, to transform secular society need secular Israelis, to transform religious Zionists you need religious Zionists. Therefore I can I can call, I can talk and I can you know I can scream and yell but I don’t think it’s going to be effective. So as a private person I have my voice.

I think the political leadership can coerce them. But to persuade, to convince, I won’t be able to do that. So therefore I would rather the energy I have, I would rather focus upon trying to persuade and commit my community to improve itself and to do But yes, of course I believe in theory that they should find the way to serve.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think the State of Israel is part of the final redemption?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: First of all, I said before, no one is a prophet. I believe the following.

The state of Israel has tremendous religious value. Even if it will not exist forever. Even if it would be like the Bayit Sheini, the second temple period. Even if it will exist for a few hundred years and then ḥas v’shalom something will happen, it will disappear or dissolve whatever I still believe that it has religious value.

Religious value is not only the final redemption. I believe every stage along the way has religious value. I also believe our efforts to bring about the redemption, they themselves have religious value. That me and working in history to achieve God’s goals, serving God, men trying to improve society, to improve history, being active in history, that is also a religious goal.

What I believe is the following. What we’ve done is significant. Now, think for a minute, you want to build a building. You can build the first story and you have a plan to build 10 floors.

You build the first. If you’re lucky, you have the resources and you get the energy, you you’re able to to complete the project and build all 10 stories. If you get stuck in the way, so you haven’t accomplished your final goal, but you have a building of two stories, or four floors, five stories, so you’ve that’s also significant. So I believe if we continue to improve, we continue to do teshuva, society continues to come closer to the Kadosh Baruch Hu, it can develop into the final redemption.

However, it can also not. It all depends what we will do. At the moment, I don’t believe redemption is around the corner and I believe the most basic religious thing is the following, that the cycle of sin and punishment, reward and redemption as a function of your actions is true about us as well. So I don’t believe there’s any religious promise or any divine promise that this is this is the final redemption or this is the way to the final redemption.

I also don’t believe that we’ve been promised that this is the path of redemption will be a roller coaster with a lot of ups and downs. No, I think it has the potential, we can build upon this. If we build enough upon this, we can arrive at the final redemption. We can also ḥas v’shalom destroy.

It will all depend what we do. So we can continue going further and higher and higher and elevating ourselves. I said before you can complete the building. You can also ruin it.

Now to make the same point from a different perspective, I don’t think at the end of the day the crucial factor is redemption. Uh I saw like this Ḥazal talk about two paradigms of redemption. One is dor shekulo ḥayav, one is dor shekulo zakai. Meaning a generation that’s full of merit or full of sin.

In both cases you can achieve redemption. Now, if redemption is the end goal, it doesn’t really matter, the worse things are, the better they’ll be. Because if sins are so bad that God has no choice quote unquote but to redeem us because otherwise we will sink into the abyss. Like if you need emergency intervention because your your situation is dire and therefore God redeems you.

Some people tell you okay but as long as we got redemption or if redemption is the final goal, that makes sense. Now I think in Rav Kook’s world redemption indeed is the final goal because Rav Kook’s whole metaphysics, his whole theology is that the purpose of creation is for divine glory to express itself. Now the crucial factor or the crucial event is how God manifests and expresses himself in the world, divine glory we’re not going into all the metaphysics now. Because of that, any redemption at the end of the day when God is ruling and Am Yisrael is restored to their to where they belong, so you’ve accomplished that.

However, if you take a different perspective, for instance Rav Soloveitchik and others, what really matters and what the world was created zeh sefer toldot adam, this is the story of man. And the world was created for the man God relationship to express itself. What matters is not geulah, what matters is teshuva. So if I answer this, what would I rather be? A generation of sinners who God has no choice but to redeem or a generation of people somewhere in between.

Neither not great tzadikim, not great reshaim. Not the most righteous and not the most and not the greatest sinners. I’d rather be like in what they call in Hebrew makom tov ba’emtza to be a beinoni to be in an intermediate state in which I’m not redeemed, but I’m closer to God. Redeemed as a sinner, I think it’s worse than to be less of a sinner and not redeemed.

Obviously the best is to be righteous and to be redeemed. I always tell you always use the following metaphor. If you go to PTA meeting, if your kid is the best in the class, the teacher will you know he’ll talk to you at length about the kid and how to to advance him. If your kid is the worst in the class, the teacher will spend a long time discussing with you what to do with the kid.

If your kid is a good kid, an average good kid, so the teacher will spend less time. You’d much rather be the parent whose kid is in a good decent place in which the teacher doesn’t have to spend 45 minutes with him than the one whose kid is in the worst place. So I’d rather be in a relationship with God that he doesn’t redeem me but I’m less of a sinner. So I don’t think that the real question is part of my complaint against Chabad is not only that they’re wrong in terms of who is Mashiach.

It’s the obsession that Mashiach is the central value of Judaism. It’s not. The central value of Judaism is service. It’s avodat Hashem.

You know the Chabad’s mistake begins with that Mashiach is posited as a crucial value. Mashiach is not. The crucial value is to do what you’re obligated hayom la’asotam. That you’re obligation, your service, your duty to the Kadosh Baruch Hu is the crucial fact.

Not what happen not the final redemption, not the Messianic era.

Sruli Fruchter: What role do you think Mashiach plays in Jewish thought and Jewish life or ought to play in Jewish thought and Jewish life?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: It depends who you talk to. On one level it’s reward, on another level it would advance mankind. You know it’s God will advance mankind. The Rambam of course told all of us that the whole point of the Messianic era is to allow better devotion to God that you’re able to you know it’s you’ll be relieved of all your concerns and all the time consuming chores that occupy us now.

We able to devote ourselves to pure and and refined service to God. Has it it’ll make the world a better place. The divine plan for creation, the world was created as an unfulfilled place or a place with potential but unrealized. And this will be the final realization of creation.

The Rambam talks also about the fact that this will address issues of divine justice and that the fact that in in in the world as we know it now often we have theodicy is a major problem. All this will be all this will be solved by Mashiach so it will it will perfect the world.

Sruli Fruchter: Is messianism helpful or harmful to Israel?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Depends what you call messianism.

Sruli Fruchter: Can it be helpful in any form or harmful in every form?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Listen all of us pray every day that that God will send us Mashiach.

All of us pray for that and believe in that. If you aspire to be better, if you aspire to perform better in order to bring about Mashiach. If you aspire as I said before an ideal perfect world, of course it’s a good value. You both want to aspire and therefore you want to aspire to arrive at machine therefore inspires you to be better, to be closer to God.

You also aspire to an ideal world. Of course that’s a good thing. It is also an expression of trust. I trust God that he will eventually redeem us.

So it’s like a child you know the the parent educates and you deny the child all kinds of things you promise you know when it’s all over when you’re fully educated there’s also an issue of trust over here. In that regard of course it’s positive. If though you raise the tension and your anticipation too greatly, it can be negative what two things. Either your anticipation is too acute and therefore disappointment and disillusionment can can enter it’s extremely dangerous.

When you tell people that good things will happen then bad things happen, you can turn them off. You can create a spiritual crisis. You know we’ve known this throughout history that if people don’t believe that things are only becoming good it created a huge crisis. That’s one problem.

The other problem if you believe that this allows you that the end justifies all the means. That this allows you in the name of messianism allows you to do things which should not be done for moral or halachic reasons. That’s another danger. Like because if Mashiach is around the corner so what difference does it make? So we don’t believe in that.

We believe that the means do matter and you can’t cut moral or halachic or ethical corners just to bring about Mashiach. But the temptation is always there.

Sruli Fruchter: Do you think peace between Israelis and Palestinians will happen within your lifetime?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I said a few times I’m not a prophet.

Sruli Fruchter: I know you’re not a prophet but—

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I could tell you from my interactions I’m not too optimistic. I think it’s the wrong question to ask.

Sruli Fruchter: What’s the right question to ask?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: No, I’ll say the following. History takes unexpected jumps. There are times it was like history flows smoothly more or less you know like all of a sudden there’s a cataract either up or down and either down or all of a sudden there’s like a highlight. Like just look like you have certain years in which like history all of a sudden comes fast forward.

If you asked me in 1979 if I believe in my lifetime communism would fall, I don’t know what I would have told you. But it fell within months. It was dramatic. If you had asked anyone in 1965, do you believe in your lifetime you’ll be able to pray at the Kotel and Har Habayit? I don’t know what they would have answered you.

In other words, history spikes at times. And because of that nobody anticipated 1989. I remember I used to read Newsweek at the time. Newsweek I guess you could say zichrono livracha.

I remember reading in 19 early 1989, late 1988, the beginnings of of a bit more liberal culture in Eastern Europe, someone wrote that he saw people in Prague wearing watermelons on their head. So he wrote it’s very nice, you know it’s culture is changing but of course from this to the fall of communism you know 100s of years or whatever. And and I remember someone running a column there in 1988, commenting that things were a bit changing, that Germany will eventually be reunited, obviously not before 2050. It happened five months later and this is 1989.

So what I’m saying is you never know when almost people look at the way history is at the moment and assume it will continue flowing the same way. But there are dramatic dramatic changes. You constantly look at what’s happening. So the answer is no, but in the same way there were things can go up or down, I have no way of knowing what dramatic changes, what dramas there will be.

Will there be another Sadat? Will there be will there be a Palestinian Sadat? Will there be a Palestinian Gorbachev? I don’t know and I don’t think anybody knows. And it’s naive to claim you know.

Sruli Fruchter: What do you think should happen with Gaza after the war? Or I guess now that the war is nearing its end as we’re going through these phases of the ceasefire deal?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: So much more I’m not privy to all the information and all of the you know all the intelligence and all the knowledge. Broadly speaking, at some point I think you know we have to arrive at some kind of satisfactory security arrangements whatever they are, however you define them. Arrive at some kind of diplomatic agreement which can be implemented and is not just wishful thinking.

And then you have to the two million people they have to let them live their lives and obviously you know if in theory and then arrive at some kind of economic cooperation and etc etc. Unfortunately you know all those hopes have been dashed. But at the moment I think there has to be a willingness to arrive at some kind of conclusion. We didn’t mention this at all before but I think one of the problems facing Israeli society at the moment is the burden upon upon the miluim, upon the army. It’s unsustainable.

The Israeli army is not …

Sruli Fruchter: And you see this first-hand being in the Gush. And in Israeli life more generally.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: I see families whose husbands are called time and time again to serve. I see I see it in my family, I see it in my neighbors, I see it in my talmidim. My class has been revolving door this year. People going in and out.

I can see how institutionally the learning has been weakened by this revolving door phenomenon of people going in and out of miluim. I see it in families you know children whose fathers have taken for 80 days in miluim. I know someone you know a close friend who gotten 83 days all done by emergency decree, Tzav Shmoneh. There’s I just believe that it’s unsustainable.

Everybody knows that the percentages of people who are showing up are decreasing every cycle. It is unsustainable. A person cannot live. I also think the army is insensitive.

For two reasons. One is at the moment there’s no checks and balances. Because it’s a war. The same way from a budgetary perspective …

On the army, no one is regulating the army. You know the army at the moment and maybe this is not for podcast in North America but speaking as an Israeli to Israelis, the army is unregulated, they’ll do whatever they want. There there are always needs. Right? They say … the blanket will never cover your whole body.

So you always have to pull it in different directions. In normal times, the army is constrained because someone someone actually regulates their budget. You know the finance ministry actually stops you know gives us certain budget restrictions. At the moment there are no budget restrictions.

It’s a war. Since there are no restrictions, so there’s no accountability, there’s no budgetary accountability and there’s no accountability in terms of manpower. No one is regulating manpower. And I do believe that because of that they are mobilizing excessively.

They’re also mobilizing by emergency decree which means there’s no legal checks and balances. If it was there are rules for how many days you can take a person. There are rules for the frequency you can take them. But at the moment there hasn’t been any legislation to change it’s simply by emergency decree.

That’s one problem. There’s no regulation. I think the army’s needs are great but additionally I think they’re also not people are not regulating properly. Secondly, I also believe or I tend to think people in the army who mobilize don’t really appreciate the price that families are paying.

Why? Because they work in the army. Even if they I admire them for making a military career but their lives are not interrupted. When someone is in the army 365 days a year, that’s his job. So his life is not interrupted.

But someone’s a lawyer, when someone is a physiotherapist, when someone is a shop owner or whatever, you interrupt his life. You interrupt his children, you interrupt their their lives. And I think there’s not enough appreciation of what this is doing to families, not Shalom Bayit issues, their children and the army doesn’t I see many examples of insensitivity to I’ll give an example. The army treats miluim like they’re 19 year olds.

So 19 year old he’s three years in the army, so he goes home for Shabbat and all of a sudden there’s a konnenut meaning there’s there’s security need so you tell the guy to to to return in the middle of of his vacation. When you tell a an 8 year old and a 4 year old that their father is coming home for a week leave from miluim. And then you call him 48 hours later tell him to return because there’s some kind of need, no one realizes no, an eight year old has been disappointed, his father’s been for months away and you tell me he’ll come be home for a week and you call him back after 48 hours, it’s not the same as telling a 19 year old you have to cut short your vacation, you can’t go to the movies Motzei Shabbat. It’s I think there’s insensitivity towards the towards the burden and I think that’s unsustainable.

The Israeli army never fought a war more than three weeks. And I think the mindset is that hasn’t been the proper switch of the mindset how you go about doing it in a way that it can be a long-term conflict.

Sruli Fruchter: Where do you identify on Israel’s political and religious spectrum? And do you have any friends on the quote unquote other side?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Like everybody, I’m in the center, right? The whole country claims that they’re the center and everybody else is to the right or to the left. So of course I’m the center. Like all of us I was once at a political rally when Rav Amitai went for the Knesset in 1989 and Professor Rosenberg who was extremely flexible and and creative person, he represented Rav Amitai’s party at this meeting and Hanan Porat Z”L. So they asked Professor Rosenberg where are you? He said I’m two centimeters, two millimeters to the right of center.

So Hanan Porat claimed the problem with you is your center is always moving. So he said right, but that is not an accusation, that’s a compliment. The center always moves. If you’re flexible and you I hope that I’m in the center.

You know I believe that you need that you have to combine diplomacy and military. But yes I have friends on both sides you know it’s of course you know there’s dialogue with with many people and across all segments of society.

Sruli Fruchter: And for our last question after the 18 and some follow ups thrown in there. Do you have more hope or fear for Israel and the Jewish people?

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Hope. I have deep concerns.

I think a person has to be responsible person has to always have his concerns but I do have hope you know Am Yisrael is a nation of people with hope you know because I’ll tell you if you you trust in Kadosh Baruch Hu, so you know that he can inflict upon you serious punishment, but you always have the hope at the end of the day as you know we have eternal hope because Baruch Hu is with us and obviously there is hope that there is teshuva, there is hope yes I have I have more hope than fear. But I hope that my concerns are addressed so that the hope that will justify the reason that hope is more than is more than fear.

Sruli Fruchter: Wonderful. Rav Mosheh Lichtenstein, thank you so much for answering our 18 questions.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Thank you. I probably let my tongue go too fast.

Sruli Fruchter: No no, perfect. This is this is wonderful.

And it’s also the starting point. There’s we’ll link to other of your shiurim and essays and whatnot.

Mosheh Lichtenstein: Maybe I sit you know and think for an hour and write something more new more nuanced and more balanced, but take it as food for thought and just you know think about it.

Sruli Fruchter: Absolutely.

This interview with was really wonderful and I deeply appreciated his openness and honesty about what he saw as Israel’s greatest crises and what he thought we could all do to avert them. Thank you as always to our friends Josh Weinberg and Gilan Brounstein for editing the video and audio of this podcast respectively as they always do. And as always, if you have questions that you want us to ask or guests that you want us to feature, please shoot us an email at info@18Forty.org. And be sure to subscribe, rate and share with friends so that we can reach new listeners.

Thank you so much and until next time, keep questioning and keep thinking.

This transcript was produced by Sofer.AI.